Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Hello

I'm again trying to tie up loose ends concerning Luftwaffe losses in North Africa.

During the night 6/7 September 1941 Tmimi airfield was bombed by British aircraft, resulting in the loss of one Ju 87, two Ju87's heavily damaged and two Ju 87's slightly damaged. MAW vol.1 mentioned an attack on Tmimi by 826 Sqn on the night 4/5 September, when FAA crews claimed six Ju 87 destroyed (the date is far off but it looks like the description of the attack above) Anyway, MAW does not mentioned any German losses neither on 4/5 nor on 6/7 September

Does anyone have the loss details of these Ju 87?

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Only three Ju 87 losses reported by X. Fliegerkorps during Sept. 1941,
Ju 87R-2 WNr.6199 of II/StG. 2 on 6.Sept., 95% damaged, Bombenwurf.

Two Ju 87R-4 of 2./StG. 3 (WNr.6272, 6306) 13.Sept., slightly damaged (10%, 25%), Malemes, Bombenwurf.

GRM

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

G.R.Morrison, thank you so much!

I found it very interesting that only one loss on 6/7 September was reported to Gen.Qu. This led me to some thoughts which I want to share.

It is not the first time I found in German documents specific mention of aircraft being heavily damaged yet that could not be found in loss lists.

It appears that only aircraft which suffered serious structural damage found its way in Gen.Qu. lists. So the losses reported as 10% - 20% were in fact quite seriously damaged airframes.

In general, the losses which could be mentioned in various German documents but did not appeared in loss lists a roughly comparable with British Cat.A - repairable with the unit or in the field workshops, and so is of no importance to Gen.Qu. The 10-40% losses are comparable with Cat.B - serious damage requiring repair in maintenance unit or at the factory, which is the very reason as to why these losses required their reporting.

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Andrei -

If you are interested in how the Luftwaffe categorized and conducted the repair of its aircraft, I recommend the following manuscript:

MURRAY, Williamson. "The Role of German Battle Damage Repair in the Luftwaffe's Conduct of the Second World War", Report RE602P1, February 1988. Logistics Management Institute, Bethesda, Maryland. 30 pages.

It's an excellent study taken almost exclusively from German documents and interviews with those involved.

It can be obtained in .pdf format from:

Logistics Management Institute
6400 Goldsboro Road
Bethesda, Maryland 20817-5886

L.

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Andrei

What is your source regarding the attack on Tmimi on the night of 6/7 Sep 1941?
Equally what is your source for the German casualties?

GRM
The 95% loss you report above, what that loss at Tmimi airfield?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Larry, thanks for that

Stig,

My source for both the attack and casualties is daily report of Abt. Ia Panzergruppe Afrika

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Andrei

Looking at the report, it is not clear if the damage refers to Benghazi or Tmimi also it appears to be Tmimi. Also, could this also refer to Italian Ju 87s. Where were these based at the time?

The actual entry in German:

In der Nacht 6./7.9. feindl. Luftangriff auf Bengasi und Flugplatz Tmimi. Gebauedeschaeden. 1 Ju 87 zerstoert 2 Ju 87 schwer und 2 leicht beschaedigt.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Tmimi I u. Tmimi II belegung:

Italian (Regia Aeronautica): 13º Gruppo CT (Sep 40 – Feb 41); 44º Gruppo BT (Sep 40); 45º Gruppo BT (Sep 40).
Luftwaffe: II./St.G. 2 (Jun-Dec 41); Stab/JG 27 (Dec 41, May-Jun 42); I./JG 27 (Dec 41, May-Jun 42); II./JG 27 (Dec 41); May-Jun 42); III./JG 27 (Dec 41); III./JG 53 (Dec 41); I./St.G. 3 (May 42); II./St.G. 3 (May-Jun 42).

L.

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Odd that the German Army claims to know more about Luftwaffe losses than Luftwaffe did itself....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Andreas,

There were no Luftwaffe Stuka units at Benghazi at that time, according to Michael Holm's web-site. I can only second that II./StG 2 was based at Tmimi so the 95% loss fits perfectly.

I think this report could not refer to Italian Ju 87's as they were not under Fliegerführer Afrika (HQ that submitted this information to Pz.Gr.)

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Stig,

Luftwaffe (Fliegerführer Afrika, to be precise) submitted this information to the Army.

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Priviet Andrei

I agree it would be very odd. I also agree with you that this report raises some interesting questions about LW reporting, even though it could be as simple as initial reports overestimating the damage as well.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Andrei

If that was the case then it sounds to me like someone had made a rather bad initial assessment of the damage, or perhaps someone was trying to gain time?

By overestimating the losses, Luftwaffe would gain some time from the Army requirements of perhaps making a dawn mission?

It would have been very foolish for anyone to make false loss reports back home, so in my mind the GQM return is pretty accurate.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 87 losses at Tmimi airfield September 1941
 

Gentlemen,

Yes, initial reports often overestimated the damage inflicted, and I've seen several examples of it in German documents

What I found interesting is that the damage to aircraft, which at the first look appeared heavy, was in the event not as serious as "even" 10%.

Stig,

Let's presume it. But why to go into such details in reporting? Light or heavy was the damage, these aircraft would be unavailable for such a mission.

So these returns are in my opinion too. My point is: Gen.Qu returns shows only really seriously damaged airframes with structural damage. So even 10% was in fact very serious damage