Werner Altrogge
 

Gentlemen,

Did Werner Altrogge fly operational missions over enemy territory and, if so, what Luftwaffe rank did he hold?

Best Regards,

Jim Geens

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

He was a Flieger-Hauptingenieur from 1942 to 1945. His missions over the U.K. were very high altitude reconnaissance missions in specially outfitted Ju 86s.

L.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Hi Larry,

Thank you. I presume this means he was made an honorary "Private" for these missions. Or was "Flieger-Hauptingenieur" an actual rank?

Jim

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Yes, it was to 30 Sep 1940. From 1 Nov 1940 the rank was Hauptmann (Ing.).

Kaczmarek

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Jim -

[Note: Horst Boog’s Die deutsche Luftwaffenführung 1935-1945: Führungsprobleme, Spitzengliederung, Generalstabsausbildung has very comprehensive coverage of this subject - see index p.708].

By decree of the the Fuhrer and Reichs Chancellery on 20Apr1935, the "Corps of Engineers of the Luftwaffe" was created. It was further deemed on 18 Oct 1935 that the members of this newly formed corps were not soldiers but "members of the Luftwaffe" with a status very similar to that of Officials.
This was an Officer only career field. Nielsen (p.50) states that they had the status of uniformed “government civil servants.”
Requirements for entry into the Corps of Engineers changed several times, yet the basic requirement was a University (equiv to a Masters Degree?) or College (Basic four year, Bachelors Degree) degree in engineering. University graduates were brought in at the rank of Fl. Hauptingenieur and College degree qualified for the rank of Fl. Ingenieur. Of particular interest, once assigned a rank members of the Ingenieurkorps were non-promotable.

Ingenieuroffiziere der Fliegertruppe (Engineer Officers of the Flying Branch)
On 11 May 1940, an order signed by Hitler and Göring established a career field for aeronautical engineers (Ingenieuroffizierlaufbahn) to be trained by the Luftwaffe (see Luftwaffen-Verordnungsblatt of 27.5.1940, p.285, no. 24, para. 577). After receiving the same training as regular Luftwaffe cadets (Fliegertruppe), they were enrolled in a 4-year program (3 years theoretical and 1 year practical) at the Luftkriegsakademie (LKA). Graduates held regular Luftwaffe rank with the suffix (Ing.) and wore the color rosa (pink) for their Waffenfarbe (service branch color) and served as technical officers with the flying units (especially bomber units), as teachers and technical directors with the Erprobungsstellen (test and development centers), as technical officers in various commands and with the RLM and Generalluftzeugmeister in Berlin.

Duties of a Flieger-Hauptingenieur:
Gruppen-Techn.Offz. bei Fl.Verbänden und FWK (Feldwerftkommandos); Werftleiter; Prüfleiter, Zugführer bei Werfteinheiten; Sachbearbeiter bei Ln-Komp.; Wartungs-Ing.; Ausbildungs-Ing.; Schiessplatz-Ing.; Bauaufsichts-Ing.; Hilfs-Sachbearbeiter in E’Stellen (Erprobungsstellen).

L.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Larry,

You just widened my knowledge of a branch of the Luftwaffe I did not know existed.

Thank you.

Jim

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Altrogge flew a number of missions over Russia with the Höhenkampfkdo with the Ju 88 and Ju 86 from 23 Jul 42 (5 Feindfüg and 12 Frontflüge) before arriving at Orly on 19 Aug 42. His last flight over UK was 2 Oct 42.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Thanks, Chris. It is interesting that Altrogge (presumably with Gerd Albrecht) made a flight on 2 Oct 42 as Horst Gotz with Erich Sommer were intercepted and damaged at altitude on 12 Sep 42 over the UK.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Some interesting background re Altrogge's unit:

14./KG 6

Formation and History. (Aug 42 - Oct 42)
Formed on or about 31 August 1942 at Paris-Orly (ex-Höhenkampfkommando/Versuchsstelle für Höhenflüge, also known as Einsatzkommando Ju 86). Continuing the experimental work of its predecessor (see there), this tiny detachment, now elevated to the status of a Staffel without any increase in size, was equipped with 2 or 3 Junkers Ju 86R high altitude bombers that were assigned the task of evaluating the effectiveness of bombing targets in England from extreme heights - upwards of 40,000 feet (12,186 meters). By the time of the re-designation (31 Aug) the experiment was nearly over and this, together with the fact that a special flight of high-altitude Spitfires became operational during the first half of Sep, brought an end in early Oct to the occasional Ju 86R raids flown by the Staffel, these usually by a single aircraft. Disbanded at Paris-Orly at the beginning of Oct with the Ju 86Rs and personnel returning to Oranienburg near Berlin. No evidence has been found to substantiate the claim that this Staffel was reestablished in Feb 1943 by renaming 3./KG 6, as alleged in some published sources.

FpN: (L 49620)

Staffelkapitan:
Lt. Erich Sommer? (DKG) (c 31 Aug 42 - Oct 42)

© H.L. deZeng IV, 2003

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Altrogge says that unit became 3(F)/ObdL and that the Verbandsführer was indeed Sommer. The 2 photos I have show him with Albrecht

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

I don't think so. 3.(F)/Ob.d.L. left Paris o/a 7 Feb 42 for Russia and never returned to France. It did pick up 2 x Ju 86 R-1s sometime in August 1942 but it handed these over to another unit by the end of the same month. But 4 x Ju 86s appear on the inventory of 14./KG 6 during the Aug - Nov 1942 period. I've read a number of accounts of these Ju 86R flights over the U.K. between August and October 1942 and they all say the unit was 14./KG 6.

3.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L.
(Unit Code T5 + )
[extracts 29 Feb 14]

Formation. (1939)
Formed 10 October 1939, probably at Werder/Havel southwest of Berlin or at Jüterbog-Damm/Brandenburg (ex-8.(F)/Lehrgeschwader 2), and initially equipped with Dornier Do 17Ps.
- - - - - - - - Blah, Blah, Blah - - - - - - -
France and North Russia
Transferred to Paris-Orly around mid-November 1941 to rest, refit and complete conversion to the Junkers Ju 88 D, then departed for assignment to Luftflotte 1 at Gostkino/135 km SSW of Leningrad, arriving o/a 7 February 1942. On 1 March the Staffel reported 11 x Ju 88 D-1s and 1 x Do 215 B-4 on strength. Gostkino was bombed by Russian planes on 19 April, badly damaging two of the Ju 88 D-1s. On .25 April, Ju 88 D-1 (T5+HL) failed to return from a recce flight over the Vologda area, and Ju 88 D-1 (T5+DL) was reported lost over the Rybinsk area on 31 May.

Central and South Russia
Ordered from Gostkino to Kharkov on or about 10 August 1942 for assignment to the newly created Luftwaffenkdo. Don for strategic reconnaissance coverage east of the Don River to the Volga. The first loss reported was Ju 88 D-1 “Trop” (T5+OL), which failed to return on 12 September. On 4 October, Ju 88 D-1 (T5+EL) was listed as missing. On 1 December the Staffel reported 8 x Ju 88 D-1s, 1 x Ju 88 D-5, 2 x Ar 240 A-0s and 1 x Bf 109 F-4 on strength.

Renamed Aufklärungsstaffel 3.(F)/100 on 27 January 1943 at Kharkov.

L.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Just quoting what Sommer wrote in Altrogge's summary of ops in mid-Sep 42

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Just found a letter from Sommer in which he said the intention was to form 14/KG 6 but the unit was disbanded before it happened.

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Gentlemen,

Larry in another thread writes:

"Flieger-Hauptingenieur vs Hauptmann (ing.): it was clear to mefrom looking through the thousands of pages of documents again that these are two separate and unrelated ranks. The former belonged to the TSD (Truppensonderdienst) while the latter were active duty Luftwaffe officers. The former were civilians [my emphasis] working for the Luftwaffe while the latter were active duty military personnel. They were not interchangeable one with the other."

So, was Altrogge:
a) a civilian who the Luftwaffe allowed to fly a bomber over England;
b) considered by the Luftwaffe to be a soldier; or
c) actually a Hauptmann (Ing.)?

By the by, further research shows:

a) Supposedly four Ju 86 R-2's were assigned to the unit:
T5+PM for Gotz/Sommer
T5+QM for Altrogge/Albrecht
T5+RM for both crews
T5+TM as a back-up aircraft.

b) That four Ju-86 R-2's are added to the inventory of 4.(F)/Aufklarungsgruppe Ob.d.L. in October 1942.

c) Larry and Doug's blurb on Albrecht says he was promoted to Oberleutenant on 01.07.42 which meant he would have out-ranked Sommer (a Leutnant) and Gotz (supposedly an Oberfeldwebel).

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Altrogge notes T5+QM, T5+RM, T5+SM and T5+GH. Sommer was indeed a Lt but Götz Fw dR & KOA promoted to Lt 1 Sep 42. Götz stated that his first flight was with T5+PM. Both Götz and Sommer refer to Altrogge as being attached to them from Rechlin. Photos of Altrogge show him in Luftwaffe uniform and wearing the EKI ribbon whilst Albrecht in the same photo is an Oblt

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Thanks, Chris.

The information and corrections are most welcome. As Altrogge was in a Luftwaffe uniform, I conclude that they regarded him as a soldier.

Jim

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

Someone should check the collar patches in the photos. A Luftwaffe Hauptmann had a patch with the half-wreath and three wings stacked above it. The Flieger-Hauptingenieur and Hauptmann (Ing.) wore a patch with the half-wreath and a 4-bladed propeller above it.

[Source: Davis, Brian L. Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe. Volume 1: 1933-1940 and Volume 2: 1940-1945. London: Arms and Armour, 1999 edition. ISBN: 1-85409-497-1 (256p.) and 1-85409- 498-X (320p.). Pb (with laminated cover). Heavily illustrated with photos and drawings. Bibliography. Index. See Volume 1 pp.92-94.]

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

I am aware of the rank tabs but they cannot be discerned in both photos I have

Re: Werner Altrogge
 

That's indeed a shame...............I thought it might provide a means of arriving at a resolution on this.

L.