Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello gentlemen,

can anybody tell me when exactly the Normandie-Niemen pilots transitioned from Yak1 to Yak9 and from Yak9 to Yak3 ?
The dates given in the literature are conflicting.
The cieldegloire website implies that all 1943 kills were Yak1 kills, all 1944 kills were Yak9 kills and all 1945 kills were Yak3 kills. Is that valid ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

This would be consistent with descriptions of the unit operating three separate campaigns (or tours of duty), resting in between and being re-equipped. I'm sorry but I don't know the precise dates of these tours.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

The largest scoring gaps (which may correspond to requipment activities) were Oct43-Jun44 and Oct44-Dec44.
However, the first Yak9's are said to have been received 12Jul43 and the first Yak3's 1Aug44.
Maybe this corresponds to the scoring gaps of Jun/Jul43 (20 days) and Aug/Sep44 (18 days).

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Twelve brand-new Yak-9s were handed over to the French on 5 July 1943.
They helped to set up two escadrilles (squadrons): 1st "Rouen" led by Cdt Pouyade, and 2nd "Le Havre" led by Cne Littolff. Their Yak-1s were transfered to the Soviets and only one was kept.
Yak-3: 20 brand-new machines on 20.08.44 and 10 more on 22.09.
Normandie-Niémen never had more than 34 Yak-3s in first line, new aircraft just made up for losses.

Chris Ehrengardt, author of two books on Normandie-Niémen.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Just some data on their Yak-1b planes:

Yak-1b No. 16119 was lost on May 7, 1943 - pilot: Aspirant Yves Mahé (POW?)
Yak-1b No. 33112, engine No. 4-1571 was evacuated on November 25, 1943.
Yak-1b No. 44114, engine No. 4-1943 was evacuated on November 25, 1943.

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello Mr. Ehrengardt,

cool. I've heard about you and your books.

Can we say that the NN aces mainly flew the
Yak-1 from the beginning until July 1943
Yak-9 from July 1943 until August 1944
Yak-3 from August 1944 until the end

?

I wish you a good start into a successful new week,

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello Gabor, can you please tell me which is your source for these losses ? Some years ago I have made some searches for such details in French archives but was not successfull.

Best regards

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

From TsAMO Archives via Russian researchers.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Few pages from Russian diary... Normandia-Nemen Yak-9 dogfight in July, 1943.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

1 VA, 303 IAD, Normandia-Nemen also had the following Saratov (Zavod 292. built) Yak-3 (with details)s:

Yak-3, S/N: 4836, engine: 442-1105 - Asp. Pierre Donarre ?
Yak-3, S/N: 6730, engine: 512-274 - S/Lt Marcel Lefevre
Yak-3, S/N: 5938, engine: 442-1030 - Marcel Perrin, delivered on March 10, 1945.


Known 1 VA, 303 IAD, Normandia-Nemen Saratov-built Yak-3 serials in 1945:

0327
0629
0630
0633
0729
1327
1437
2336
2432
2827
2936
3230
3237
3529
4733
4836
5035
5429
5938
6030
6428
6730
6737
7321
7329
7737
8029
8929
9128
9536
9635

Meaning of Saratov built Yak-3 serials: XXyy -> , where XX = plane ID within batch, yy = Batch No.

Known Normandia-Nemen Yak-1B S/N:
29117
16119
33112
44114

Meaning of Saratov built Yak-1 serials: XXyyy -> , where XX = plane ID within batch, yyy = Batch No.

Known Normandia-Nemen (Novosibirsk, Zavod 153-built) Yak-9D S/N:

1515330 (15-153-30 = The 30th Yak-9D of the 15th batch in Novosibirsk, Factory No.153)
(Lindr1, Russia)

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Michael and all,

I would try to quote from the book that I do have from Chris Ehrengardt, published with HEIMDAL, which I do have stored on another house (so not at hand when I first read this thread); however the author himself answered you.

I can assure you, Michael, that this is a "magnifique travail", with some sketches of air combats, a lot of photographs and first hand accounts. The second book he do mention I do not know, but may be as good as the first one. If memory does not fail me, there are table losses, victory claims (tables) and original combat reports (with original sketches). What I can say, after 20+ years it was originally published, is that some lateral paintings (Osprey style) of the aircraft flown by some of proeminente persons of this famous Squadrons would have been welcomed, on the original book [cover enclosed]. However the style of publishing at that time was different...and the book STILL is a magnific work.

CJE > I never thought you were Ehrengardt!!! Several times you have helped me (on threads) and contributed onto this GREAT Forum. What I can say is: CONGRATULATIONS...and keep going! The books I do have from Heimdall are my great treasures...because they are in French and of excellent quality. It is a pitty one can not buy via internet from them....some of the 90's period books are no more available and the prices are extremely high, when one do find them.

GABOR > Thank your for sharing your great knowledge about Russian and Eastern Front activities...with guys like you contributing on the threads, we "sprogs" always learn something else...and this is the beauty of this FORUM....

May you all have a nice day, in health and Peace.

Adriano

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Thanks for your appreciation.
I only worked from French sources but I assume they are as reliable as Russian ones.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Division (303. IAD) commander of 1. OIAP "Normandie-Niemen" was General-Major Georgii Nefedovich Zakharov. He flew Yak-3 white "1", S/N: 310147 from Tbilisi. (31-01-47: 47th Yak-3 of batch No.01 in Tbilisi, Factory no.31)

Division structure of 1st Air Army, 303. IAD on February 5, 1945:

303. IAD (Div. Commander: Gen.Maj. Zakharov - Yak-3):

- 1. OIAP "Normandie-Niemen".......26 Yak-3
- 9. GvIAP....................................30 La-7
- 18. GvIAP..................................33 Yak-3
- 139. GvIAP................................26 Yak-3, 1 Yak-9D
- 523. IAP....................................14 La-7, 8 La-5

Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Pic of. a Normandie-Niemen Yak-3 at the end of 1944. The typical tactical marking digits of Saratov, factory No.292 (here '24') were applied as the "plane in the batch ID", still at the factory to make the ground crews' life easier on the front-line airfields. If for some reason a regiment used a unique marking system, then they overpainted these factory applied numbers, but these original digits can be easily recognized. Since in 1945 only Yak-3 S/N: 2432 had the plane ID '24' (in batch no.32), therefore this photo shows most likely Yak-3 S/N: 2432:

0327
0629
0630
0633
0729
1327
1437
2336
2432
2827
2936
3230
3237
3529
4733
4836
5035
5429
5938
6030
6428
6730
6737
7321
7329
7737
8029
8929
9128
9536
9635

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Good morning,

can you tell me if Roland de la Poype's October 1944 kills were scored in the Yak-3 ?

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Michael,

Eg. on October 6, 1944 the 1. OIAP "Normandie", 18. GvIAP and 523. IAP regiments flew 102 sorties together with 56 Yak-3s and 16 La-5s. This means that "Normandie" used only Yak-3s during these sorties as only the 523. IAP was equipped with the La-5s. Other early October days also say that the 1. OIAP used Yak-3s, so I assume yes, he scored his October kills in a Yak-3.

Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Dear Gabor,

this is of great help, thank you.
Can you tell me if Joseph Risso and Henri Foucaud scored all of their 1943 kills in the Yak-9 ?

I wish you a good afternoon,

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

huh.... :-))))) Perhaps... But it takes time. ...and I should know the dates. I have no info on individual claims, max. the planes used on certain dates. But if they eg. used Yak-1b and Yak-9D fighters together, I won't know who flew which one. Cheers,
Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Thanks Gabor,
very interestin info.

However the list seems missing Yak3 "44YY", the plane coded with original Saratov factory number "44"; this plane was flown by N-N top ace Jaques André. According to some source it was then re-coded "35".

Flavio

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Thanks Flavio, it is entirely possible, as this list is far from being colmplete. Obviously many losses are not listed here. If his Yak-3 had Saratov-style digits, then yes, it was the 44th plane of an unknown batch. (44yy) It is interesting, that eg. the 5th Air Army, 13th GvIAD marked the Saratov-built Yak-3s with the factory number (292) displayed in the centre in their documents, like: 1229217 (not just simply 1217), but Normadie-Niemen didn't. Unfortunately Normandie re-numbered their Yaks and did not keep the factory applied, original tactical numbers, referring to their S/N. Saratov factory No.292 used smaller, 'engineering-style', while Tbilisi factory No.31 used larger, rounded-style digits on their Yak-3s. Luckily, many fighter regiments kept the factory applied tactical (partial serial) numbers, eg. the 897 IAP, 150 GvIAP, etc., so if their serial plate is found at their crash-site, their tactical number is known and with the known regiment markings graphically can be reconstructed. Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello,

I've collected Normandie-Niemen decimal score aces by Yak type.
Interestingly there were 15 Yak-3 aces, only 2 Yak-9 aces and no Yak-1 aces except for maybe Henri Foucaud who may have been a Yak-9 or a Yak-1 ace. Does anyone of you know more about his plane ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Something that can be of some interest.

On 22 March 1943 Normandie transfered to Monkounino (French spelling) with 14 Yak-1b's:
- 26.112 Tulasne
- 17.115 Derville
- 29.117 Mahé
- 44.115 Albert
- 43.112 Préziosi
- 09.117 Posnanski
- 16.119 Littolff
- 33.110 Castelain
- 05.117 Bizien
- 06.118 Durand
- 33.112 Béguin
- 03.113 Risso
- 14.116 Lefèvre
- 33.116 de La Poype
- U2 de Pange

Chris

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Dear Chris,

very appealing line-up.
As far as I know, Henri Foucaud joined NN in August. Can you tell me, if he scored he started his scoring run in the Yak-9 ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Marcel Albert is generally pronounced the top scorer of the Normandie-Niemen regiment (see also his excellent biography written by Many Souffan).
However, when you count shared kills as decimals Jacques André has a higher NN-score: 12,67 kills versus Albert's 12,07 kills.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello to all,
according with Black Cross Red Star vol.5 , French veterans Albert Littolf and Noel Castelain were shot down on 16 July 1943 while flying YAK-7Bs.
Any comment on the use of this YAK variant by Normandie?
Regards
Ludovico

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Hello

A "good" book....but!
"Pay attention" to the facts mentioned,there are many errors,contradictions,omissions....it's mentioned for example:Normandié-Niemen,in 1943 the name of the French Regiment was Normandie...Niemen was not added until 1944.

16/07/43
Albert Litolf:Yak 9 (5 white n°0434)
Noel Castelain:Yak 9 (8 white n°0442)
Gerard Leon:Yak 1B (28 white)

Michel

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Thank you very much for these data.
Regards
Ludovico

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

Possibly, the Yak-7B wasn't used in the Normandie unit at all, or only in very limited numbers. Some sources might have mixed up this type with the Yak-1b which was the unofficial name for the Yak-1 with lowered rear fuselage.

Re: Normandie-Niemen
 

If shared kills are counted as decimals, then the French had

• 15 Yak-3 aces
• 7 Spitfire aces
• 5 Curtiss P-36 aces
• 3 Yak-9 aces
• 3 Dewoitine D.520 aces
• 3 Hurricane aces
• 2 Morane-Saulnier MS.406 aces
• 2 Bloch MB.152 aces
• 1 Tempest ace