First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Gentlemen,

According the deZeng and Stankey,Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries article on then Oberleutnant Cornelius Noell, on "01.07.41 was the first recon pilot to photograph Moscow".

1. What aircraft did he use?

2. What airfield did he fly from?

best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Interesting................I just went through all of my stuff but cannot find a reference to this meritorious deed. I am thinking it may have come from the Ritterkreuz works put out by Biblio-Verlag or the author and publisher Viet Scherzer. Doug has all of these RK biographical books and I have passed this on to him to see if he can find it. Noell would have been with either Versuchsstelle für Höhenflüge (VfH) or 4.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L. at the time. Both were making long-range reconnaissance flights over the USSR in spring-summer 1941.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Hi Larry,

Thanks! From the following it is obvious that the summaries you and Doug are invaluable to buffs like myself.

Cornelius Noell, from your article, "22.10.41 Oblt., awarded Ritterkreuz, 4.(F)/Aufkl. Gr. Ob.d.L.". And from the summary on Joseph Bisping, "22.10.41 Oblt., awarded the Ritterkreuz as an observer in 4.(F)/Aufkl. Gr.Ob.d.L." Perhaps Bisping was his navigator?

Your work is invaluable!

Jim

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

We're still checking, Jim. I increasingly think this is something Doug found. But I did find something strange this afternoon. While looking through the obvious sources, I did come upon the Theodor Rowehl postwar history in which he says:

T.Rowehl-“Chronik der Aufklaerungsgruppe des Ob.d.L.”, unpublished and undated manuscript, 28p., Karlsruhe Collection/MGFA Freiburg, Lw 108/16.
Comment: author Rowehl says it was 1.(F)/Ob.d.L. that flew recce missions to Moscow in 1941 but he makes no mention of the 1 July 1941 flight over Moscow. 1.(F)/Ob.d.L. was assigned to strategic reconnaissance on the central sector of the Eastern Front along the axis toward Moscow. He says in all only 1 RK was awarded to Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L. members along with 10 DKi.G and approx. 25 Frontflugspangen in Gold. But I would not put too much stock in the accuracy of this account of the awards because like so many others, Rowehl wrote his manuscript postwar without access to any documents.

Your findings on Bisping sound very likely - both getting the award on the same mission because of its extraordinary nature, importance and danger.

The search continues................

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Jim -

Have it! And it's entirely thanks to Doug Stankey's diligent investigating and good memory. While I was randomly working my way through book after book, he remembered where he had seen it and got back to me this morning. Here are his findings:

http://www.eurobuch.com

This is just a guess, but the 1 July 1941 date may be the date Noell and Bisping were recommended for the RK or possibly the date of their final flight to the Moscow area.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Hi Larry,

Thank you! And thank Doug Stankey for me. It is interesting that on this mission and those of the Ju 86 both crew seem to be qualified pilots.

Jim

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Just a short note, it says on page 154 that the aircraft used for the Moscow flights were a Ju 88 B-0. "Dieser Bildaufklärungsflug erfolgte von Dunaburg aus mit einer Ju 88 B-0 der 1. Staffel der Aufklärungsgruppe Ob.d.L."

BR /Mikael

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

!!!

Mikael and Jim: Hmmm.......I would tend to go with 1.(F)/Ob.d.L. at Dünaburg:

Quote:

1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L.

However, Dünaburg was first used by the Luftwaffe on 28 June 1941 having been in Soviet hands prior to that. I suspect the long-range Ob.d.L. reconnaissance flights would have been staged from there, i.e., fly in from East Prussia, top off the fuel tanks, fly the mission, land back at Dünaburg, refuel and then return to East Prussia.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Larry,

Have you consulted, David Kahn's "Hitler Spies"? Kahn corresponded both, with Theodor Rowehl, and Cornelius Noell. His Chapter 8, The World From the Sky (pp.114-135), mentions the overflights. There is also a mention in Chapter 24, The Greatest Mistake (pp.445-461). Kahn also cites a couple of publications not mentioned in your Bibliography:

Luftspionage.
Eyermann, Karl-Heinz.
Berlin: Deutscher Militaerverlag,1963.
2 Vols. (Kahn mentions, that Eyermann has got some of his dates wrong)

Augen am Himmel: eine Piratenchronik.
Schreyer,Wolfgang.
Berlin: Deutscher Militaerverlag,1968 (437 pp.)

I am aware all of these sources are pre-1978, but Kahn was a dedicated historian/researcher, and quoted all his sources. As you will find if you consult his Notes and Bibliography:

Hitler's Spies:German Military Intelligence in World War II.
Kahn,David.
New York: Macmillan Publishing,1978.

Dated, but potentially useful.

Col.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Deutscher Militaerverlag Was an eastern german publication company, and for us old enough to remember the wall days know that one has to read such publications quite carefully to extract whatever true and accurate information that might in there, since not everything can be taken at face value.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

There is also something about early overflights in Günther W. Gellermann's »Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte« (Bernard & Graefe, ISBN 3763758569). He has an account from a crew that was captured by the Soviets but (from memory) released when German troops invaded.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Col. Bruggy wrote in part:
I have Kahn's book stored in a box in my garage and I will take a look at it today. I remember that he had a lot of material on the so-called "Rowehl Geschwader". But I do not have either of the East German titles you mentioned.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

I am pretty sure this is the aircraft that came down in western Ukraine just a few days before 22 June 1941.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Here is what Kahn has to say about Noell:

On 26 June 1941, four days after the Germans attacked, Noell took off in his Ju 88 from a forward fighter airfield and headed toward Moscow, homing in on its broadcasting station. [blah, blah, blah]. He calmly photographed the airfields surrounding the city. Russian fighters rose to intercept him and all sorts of Flak fired away but he was far too high to be in danger. When he finished, he turned and sailed unscathed for home.

Kahn says Cornelius Noell also flew two Fw 200 Condor recce missions from Königsberg to Narvik during the occupation of Norway.

[Source: Kahn, David. Hitler's Spies. 1978. ISBN: 0-02-560610-7. Pages 119-20. The "Notes" section in the book cites "Noell, memorandum" as Kahn's source.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

In 1989, I was asked by Mike Norton (who I've long since lost touch with) to translate a copy of a letter he had from Siegfried Knemeyer to Conny Noell, dated 3 July 1977. Knemeyer didn't himself take part in the the 1941 coverage of the USSR but talks about flying the Ju 88 V13 and V14, remarking to Noell:

"Your Ju 88 to Moscow was a Ju 88 B, full-vision cockpit and BM. Bisping explained about the good visibility and the tramlines."

Presumably BM = Bordmechaniker but I've no idea what "tramlines" (Straßenbahnen) means unless perhaps they were lines painted on the glazing to indicate angles of flight.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

"............Tramlines"..................

In my post above where I inserted "blah, blah, blah", Kahn says in reference to this flight,

I'm guessing here, but "tramlines, trolleys and Straßenbahnen" are different words for the same thing, i.e., streetcars. The Brits use "tramlines"(?), the Yankee doodles use "trolleys" and "streetcars", and the Germans use "Straßenbahn". I've been on all of them except for the British "trams" because the tube and the London double-decker buses were more fun. :)

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

The reference you quote certainly makes sense in context but the rarer forms of British public transport need explanation! A tram (or tramcar) runs on rails (tramlines) set into the road surface and draws its power from overhead electric cables — since they stopped using horses, anyway. These have always operated in Blackpool and have been reintroduced in e.g. London and Manchester. A trolleybus (sadly no more) took power from overhead cables but did not run on rails; apart from the gear on the roof, it looked like a normal double decker, as best I can remember.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Your description of the British "tram" or "tramcar" fits the American trolleys and streetcars like a glove. Same for the Straßenbahnen.

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Hi,

In "On Special Missions" (Smith, Creek and Petrick) on page 17 there are photos of a Ju 88 B-0. The captions suggest that (a) this is K9+RH and (b) it was the aircraft used on the sortie of 26 June 1941.
There is an additional photo on the same page of that aircraft with the crew standing in front (Bisping and Noell are both identified).

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Thanks, everyone, for this great thread!

Jim

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

IPMS Austria has an article on a superb model of Ju88B-0 "K9+RH":
http://www.ipms.at/webalt/index.php?...=399&Itemid=44
greetings, Richard

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Larry you are wrong, it was exactly on 15.04.1941 (2 months before), N-E near Równe a Ju 86 P-1, with 2 crew, one engine had stopped.
The crew had to lower altitude.

The plane was forced to land by I-16 of 46. IAP by st lejt/kpt. Petr Szałunow/Salunov. Later, there were found five bullets in the plane five/5 bullets holles.

So it is much possibility the damaged plane was extra shot down by Soviet pilot, who deliberatly "help" in this earlier force landing.

Regards,
mirekw

PS
The crew escaped from prison and returned to his companions after 22/06/1941

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Thank you, Mirek. I love it when you tell me and others here that we are wrong. I confess, I could and should have looked it up. Nearly every published source covering these pre-22 June 1941 Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L. flights mentions two or three incidents over Ukraine. I should have re-read these and checked the dates, in full knowledge that you would be reading this thread and would quickly bring any errors to our attention. How fulfilling. Thank you again, Mirek.

L. :o ;)

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Larry you are welcome, :-)

In the literature you can find information about these events (2-3 cases or more?), but no specific hard evidence. So far, this is one well-known and described a case from both sides. Others are at the moment in the phase of myths and fairy tales...

regards,

mw

BTW

First time I had written about this case in 2004 in Polish magazine Militaria i Fakty no 2(23)/2004, "Czerwony Blizkrieg w lipcu 1941 r./ The Red Blizkrieg in July 1941". p. 33.

I know that Polish language is know for Polish people, :-)

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Larry,

Might I suggest you go back and consult chapter 8, in Kahn's "Hitler's Spies". (p.250), and check his sources in the notes (p.601).

Col.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

I already checked Kahn and his footnotes (see my previous posts in this thread) and put the book back in the box in the garage. Like you, I just came here to help the thread's originator, Karoband (Jim). I think the flow of information developed quite well and now amounts to most of what is known about these high-altitude reconnaissance flights deep into the USSR. So I'm outta here. :)

L.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Larry Kommando Rowehl started recon PR flights over Russia back in 1939
I therefore can't imagine that the first Moscow shots were taken as late as
1941, though I did not deal with this subject and can't tell it for sure.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Adios Larry,

For the benefit of those who don't have access to Kahn's Hitler's Spies, I quote (p.450):

"The flights increased in pace, in the three weeks between 27 March and 18 April (1941), the Russians detected an average of more than three a day. On 4 April, for example, they spotted a plane at 23,000 feet that violated the border near Prezemysl at 1:20 p.m., and penetrated 75 miles into Russian-occupied territory before flying back to Germany at 1:50 p.m.. They had no illusions as to what the flights were for. In one plane, which landed near Rovno on 15 April, they found a camera, some rolls of exposed film, and a map of the Soviet Union. This may have been the plane that Rowehl sent to photograph Sverdlovsk, the leading industrial city of the Urals, almost a 3,000-mile round trip from Kirkenes in Northern Norway, and that never came back. But the Russians merely registered a protest. Even when their fighters forced down a Ju 86 that had lost altitude due to motor damage early in June, recovering the camera and all its pictures, no serious repercussions ensued."

Not so sure about the "early June", loss. But the 15th April, 1941 loss, is plain to see.

Larry, like you, I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Col.

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

In Kahn's Hitler's Spies, there is an error, twice is mentioned the same incident (15 April and early June 1941). The next one had never happend!

Soviets's sources can confirme only this first one.

regards,
mw

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

picture of Noell can be found here: https://www.delcampe.net/nl/verzamel...344653909.html

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Snautzer,

Thank you for putting a face to this event.

Jim Geens

Re: First P/R overflight of Moscow?
 

Your welcome, i have hundreds of pilots, not always named and i usually see on torch if something is known about them. In this case i found the discussion very intressting and i wanted to put a face with the story.