Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Hello,

I am trying to identify one of the two Do 335s that were given to the British. The first one is Do 335 A-10 W.Nr. 240112, but there are some conflicting information regarding the identity of the 2nd one.

Classic Publication states that it was W.Nr. 240161. I was unable to find a photo of that aircraft in its original German markings that would confirm its identity.

Does anybody know why Classic stated it is 240161? Are there any photos that show it in German markings?

Regards,

Roger

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Hello Roger!

240121 should be the correct Werksnummer of second Do 335.
Crashed on 13.12.1945.
Wrong thought?

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Hello GrafWolf,

It cannot have been 240121 since that was a two-seater. The first British one was the two seater 240112, the second one was a single-seater.

Cheers,

Roger

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

From what I see it had no Luftwaffe camo or W.Nr., if that is the unpainted one (with painted fins and cowling), USAAF Star and Bar marking overpainted with RAF roundel.

My notes only have two, second may never have had W.Nr.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a...olors-1200.jpg

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Do 335 A-10 W.Nr. 240112 (Same aircraft?)
http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...35-A12-103.jpg
https://acesflyinghigh.files.wordpre.../do335-raf.jpg

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Ed,

that is the aircraft I am referring to. Before US and later British markings were applied it may have had German markings incl the last 3 digits of its serial number m. But even if not, I could not find a photo that shows it without Allied markings.

Revi16, 240112 was the two-seater that was also given to the British. Its identity is confirmed, but the singleseater is unclear.

Roger

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

According to Smith and Creek (Pg. 117-122 with many photos and profiles,) the two-seat variant was 240112.

The single-seat variant was an A-1, and in the verbatim was: "W.Nr. 24016?". (They provide seven photos of it, none of which show it in German livery.) The British registration was AM 225.

The Regnat text states that the aircraft was captured in an "unpainted" state: "except for areas of the cowling and the tail." (Pg. 171)

Photographs in the Smith, Creek and Hitchcock text suggests that the aircraft was not W.Nr. 240162. That aircraft was missing it's rear engine, and painted in German livery.

Best guess is: W.Nr. 240161.

Bronc

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Again we´re victim of uncertainty which Werknummern are allocated to Do335s like 2/1, 1/3, 14/18, 16/20 etc.etc. Candidates concerning the camouflage imho are 14/18 and 16/20. Afaik 14/18 broke apart when being moved due to the missing rear engine.
The missing rear engine is not the problem imo, because there were enough airframes and engines in Oberpfaffenhoffen to assemble a complete Do 335. And remember, the British were 2nd in line for the distribution of airworthy Do 335s. The best Do 335 airframes were shipped to the US excluding white 112 which was completed by the US, but ceded to the British. Hitchcock has 16/20 as WNr 240120, I have it as 240163, but this is a guess. I´m afraid we´ll never know.

Regards
RolandF

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

The Heinz Nowarra text, Dornier DO 335 "Pfeil" (Schiffer, 48 pages, 1989) states:

"When the first American troops reached the Dornier works in Oberpfaffenhofen at the end of April, they found several A-1, four A-4 and several A-10 and A-12 planes there. Among them was the Do 335 A-12, factory number 240112. On September 7, 1945 it was flown to Rheims by Flight Lt. Taylor, [...] A second plane, factory number 240121, was flown repeatedly by both English and American pilots, and then likewise sent to England. [...] Factory number 240121 was destroyed on December 13, 1945." (Pg 26)

The Regnat text states that this aircraft (AM 225) was damaged (and later written off) after a nose wheel up landing at Merville (France.) (On the 12th or 13th.)

If 240121 has been confirmed as a 2-seater then perhaps Nowarra meant to write 240161? Is there a typo involved in this mystery?

(Note: If the Smith, Creek and Hitchcock text is indeed correct, then we have a clue as to what the W.Nr's of the 2/1, 1/3, 14/18, 16/20 aircraft were. The first digits are the last numbers of W.Nr. and the large digits are a model number, i.e: M18 and M20 in the B series.)

Bronc

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

No, these are Building Block Numbers, not connected to W.Nr.

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Ed

You make me curious. Can you elaborate with regard to your block number theory?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

You will have to wait, just as anyone else on that matter.

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Thank you all for your input and thoughts. So, in summary:

• The most likely candidates for the British single-seater are 14/18 and 16/20

• However, according to EdNorth, the x/x codes do not directly relate to the aircraft's serial number and therefore it is hardly possible to say which W.Nr. 14/18 and 16/20 were.

The only possibility would be to have a wartime document that translates the x/x codes to W.Nr. Ed, is that correct? Does such a document exist?

Roger

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

I don't think so. 14/18 and 16/20 were both B-3 models. (However see below.) The British mystery aircraft was clearly an A-1.


Bronc

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

There is a chart on page 94 of the Smith, Creek and Roletschek text: Dornier Do 335 Pfeil/Arrow, (13/Classic, 2006, Chevron Publishing) which contains the following data that contradicts the 1983 data {post 14 above} from the Smith, Creek and Hitchcock, Monogram Monarch 2:

W.Nr. 240159 = A-1 likely numbered 14/18
W.Nr. 240160 = A-1 possibly numbered 15/19
W.Nr. 240161 = A-1 recovered at Oberpfaffenhofen
W.Nr. 240162 = A-1 Smith and Creek say this was numbered 2/1
W.Nr. 240163 = A-1 numbered 16/20. The Smith and Creek Monogram Monarch 2 text has a photo on page 116, that clearly shows "163" written on the top rudder of 16/20.
W.Nr. 240164 = A-1 No info
W.Nr. 240165 = A-1 numbered 1/3 - went into the American program via the HMS Reaper.

The British mystery ship was an A-1, so W.Nr. 240159-64 seems quite likely! If the 2006 work by Smith, Creek and Roletschek is accurate...

Bronc

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Hi Bronc,

Thanks for the info, especially for the reference to the Monogram Monarch 2, p.116 that shows 163 on the tail of 16/20. I don't have that book, but hopefully the referenced photo was also published in more recent publications. That was new to me.

So, it indeed seems that the xx/xx codes were not abbreviations of the aircraft's serial number. I am wondering why they changed from the W.Nr. last 3 digits to the xx/xx coding.

In summary, I now have:

The 2 that went to the US:
- Single-seater W.Nr. 240102 (now at NASM), coded 102
- Single-seater W.Nr. ?, coded 1/3 --> Classic 2006 gives W.Nr. 240165, but what is the basis for this statement? Is there a photo that shows 165 on the tail?

The 2 that went to the UK:
- Two-seater W.Nr. 240112, coded 112
- Single-seater W.Nr. ?, coded ? --> Possibly 14/18, 16/20

15/19: ?
2/1: camouflaged and therefore probably not a candidate for the single-seater that went to the UK

In the well-known photo of the Do 335 collection in front of the hangars at Oberpfaffenhofeon, the top left one may have been the one that went to the UK. It is fairly complete, but doesn't carry any visible markings. However, the engine cowlings appear to be aluminum as well. The one that went to the UK had camouflaged cowlings.

Quite a mistery....

Roger

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Maybe an interesting report, the fate of the two seater in January 1946, ended up in school.

http://www.airsciences.org.uk/FASTPr...Jan%202016.pdf

Regards

Harry

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

No 163 number in the photo shown on page 116 in my edition of the book.

14/18 doesn't have any other number either.

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

These photos shows 121, 14/18, and 16/20 in the hangar. On 121, there is also a "121" painted just below and forward of the windscreen.
http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...ivfdu.jpg.html
http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...8nywc.jpg.html

This photo taken from another angle shows 14/18 and 16/20.
http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...cd9k0.jpg.html

This close up of the upper vertical stab/rudder shows the 163 written on it.
http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...iex9r.jpg.html

This is a close up of the lower vertical stab of 16/20. You can see the number 15 or 115 written on it in four different places.
http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...rnwhp.jpg.html

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

I don't know, if this can help, because I don't know how this knowledge was gained. But it seems to fit, if we follow the info given in post #15: "W.Nr. 240161 = A-1 recovered at Oberpfaffenhofen"
This site states:
Do 335A-1 - [No code] - WNr.240161 - Captured by US [in Oberpfaffenhofen]. To RAE, but w/o on delivery flight 13 Dec 1945 at Merville?

Another photo that matches edNorth's photo in post #4 in the way it was painted/ left in bare metal showing a singele seater with american insignia:

Link to an older thread here at TOCH and the therein linked photo:

http://www.skylighters.org/photos/le...s/dornier1.jpg
Source: http://www.skylighters.org/photos/le...s/dornier1.jpg

And at LEMB (also seeking for the identity of AM225) are two photos of a similarly looking Do335, but with RAF roundels (with underlaying remains of former US insignia) and collapsed nose wheel. And a link at the end of this article points to a variation of the photo posted above.

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

http://s533.photobucket.com/user/mjf...rnwhp.jpg.html

Gentlemen, the numbers chalked on the lower fin are "17" and "175". Watch the horizontal bar in the middle of the "7" - in Germany a measure to distinguish a "7" from a "1".

Regards
RolandF

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

The meaning of the double numbers on the top fin is explained here like this: the first or left number resembles the V-number and the second or right is supposed to be the last two digits of the WNr..
Ergo, this is the suggested solution:

Do 335B series prototypes.
6 aircraft part assembled at Oberpfaffenhofen.

Model - Code - Werk Nr. - Notes
Do 335B-2 - RP+UB 14/18 - 240118 - B-2 replacement prototyp
Do 335V-15 - RP+UC 15/19 - 240119 - B-1 2nd prototype, to Lwe Feb 1945
Do 335V-16 - RP+UD 16/20 - 240120 - B-2 2nd prototype, night fighter with FuG 218
Do 335V-17 - RP+UE 17/16 - 240116 - B-6 prototype, also W Nr 230017, to France CEV, w/o 1947?
Do 335V-18 - RP+UF 18/17 - 240117 - B-6 2nd prototype, night fighter, to Lwe Feb 1945
Do 335V-19 - RP+UG 19/15 - 240115 - B-3 prototype, not completed
Do 335V-20 - - B-7 prototype, not completed
Do 335V-21 - - B-8 prototype, not completed
Do 335V-22 - - B-8 2nd prototype, not completed

Re: Do 335 A-1 Air Ministry AM225 --> W.Nr. 240161?
 

Christian
The list you refer to is basically unchanged since 1997 (when I printed it).
It is an interesting theory, but the problem is that no one else seems to take it seriously. Aeroflight's list has not one single reference showing us from where they adapted their list (I doubt their editor has tapped some unknown source nobody else but him has had access to)

Roland
In the case of the digt one vs digit 7 I think you are mistaken. I believe we do look at 115 and below that 15. The middle 1 is for some reason underlined and the line you see does not in fact cut through the middle but is actually beneath it.

I suppose the interesting question is how seriously we should take these chalked (sloppy) digits? In the case of 16/20 we then have evidence of both WNr 240115 and 240163. Not impossible I suppose, but why?

Cheers
Stig