What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I come to this place almost every day and I am always amazed by the incredible amount of time and energy, the knowledge, and the passion that is displayed by the members of this forum. It is amazing that when a photo of an aircraft gets posted there is usually a dozen members who recognize it instantly--down to the manufacturer and W.No.--and also have additional photos of the same plane from different angles.

I've often wondered what everyone's "Holy Grail" is. What critical photo, or important document or record, or scrap of information that the experts on this list are searching and waiting for.

Are there missing photos of Luftwaffe aircraft that people are searching for that, if they were discovered, would answer major questions? What would a "wish list" of Luftwaffe photos look like?

Are there missing documents or records that people are searching for that, if they were discovered, would answer major questions? Is there a "wish list" of missing Luftwaffe documents and records?

What are the unsolved mysteries of Luftwaffe research?

All my best,

Bronc

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Given the amount of Luftwaffe documentation which did not survive the War, estimated at over 90%, there are plenty. I have a number of items I'd just love for my own research be they individuals' Flugbuecher, KTBs, Monatsberichte, however, I guess the major missing Holy Grail is the 1944 operational losses, which people are attempting to plug as best they can.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

One photo that I have been hoping for has recently been found - a Ju 88G-7. Now the pessimists can see that it did exist, and the optimists will hopefully stop mis-identifying a Ju 88G-6. This illustrates that there are still gems out there to be found.
What I want to find amongst my next ebay search is a clear photo of a Bf 109G-6N(Naxos) in opperational use.

.................Oh yes, and a Bf 109H would be nice.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I have just received an original clear color picture of a JG400 Me163, during an operational flight, with the emblem "Wie ein Floh, aber oHo !" clearly visible;
Camouflage on the upper of the wings is neat and clear, and the pilot is waiving.







No, remember: today is April's fool !!!

GC

A full box of good quality color slides taken in may 1945
 

Bonjour,

For me it would be to see a big box full of one hundred of very good quality color slides of late war 109, 190, 262, comming out of the forgotten suitcase a late GI, ... published into a well printed book

and as the dreams are open, you could add some nice shots of operational Ta 152 and also a second volume to the fabulous "LO+ST"...

RB

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Rémi, I totally follow in your steps ! Except maybe we could have 500 color slides instead of 100 ? And three more "LO+ST" sequels ;)

As for the quality of those color shots, well, akin to the one I chanced on yesterday:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...in/dateposted/

Cheers
Marc

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

The 1944 loss returns, already mentioned, are the main thing. However, I would really like to find the Allied daily Mediterranean signals intelligence reports for March 1944 to help with my research on I./JG 2 in Italy. There is a file of these reports starting in June 1944 year, while the RAF 276 Wing Record Books include only the reports for the first day of earlier months including March. It is very frustrating to have the report for 1st March and to know that the other 30 once existed but be unable to find them!

Photos: I agree, more operational Ta 152s; reconnaissance Me 262s with the T9+_H marking; an TGr. 30 He 111 in one of the "Atlantic Fortresses"; a JGr. 200 photo album; NSG 2 aircraft in the west with their markings clearly visible; NSG 20 aircraft ditto.

More realistically, the Bletchley Park Museum has been engaged in a long-term project to digitise 3 million pages of documents — the sooner they complete that job, the better as far as I'm concerned.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Dear Nick!

Here is a picture He 111 from TGr. 30!
It was taken in 1947 on Airfield Reichenbach.
Maybe someone can help me with pictures of the crew
from Ju 252 1./TGr. 30 which was lost on 04.04.1945 near
Reichenbach?
Ofw. Otto Liesche FF
Ofw. Hugo Vorwerk BM
Fw. Josef Kenzian BF
Lt. Heinrich Meininghaus BB
Ofw. Philipp Merle BF

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

N.B. wrote in part:
Does B.P. have a target date for completion? Any idea how far along they are? Will the output be viewable online or only through the purchase of DVDs/CDs?

L.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I contacted Bletchley in 2011 about this and followed in April 2013.

Their reply the first time was: "Regarding the digitisation of the Bletchley Park Archive: HP [Hewlett Packard] very kindly donated a number of scanners and computers to Bletchley Park Trust in order for this digitisation process to occur and we are currently in the process of undertaking work on the accessioning and cataloguing backlog in order to utilise this equipment effectively and link records and images. I am not sure when the first batches will become 'live' however."

On the second occasion: "This project is still in the infancy."

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Thanks.

It sounds like it's way too far down the road for people my age to be concerned about.

L.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Holy Grail ? Hum, Tempest & Lancaster under german colors ? Operational Ta152C of Bf109H...

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Are there private collections of Luftwaffe photographs that are known to exist, but they are kept so private and exclusive that nobody gets to see them? You know, like the super-secret art collections in secret rooms that reclusive billionaires like to own?

Also, how much is left to discover? Is there a treasure trove of photos and documents literally waiting to be discovered--in the attics of Germany and the US, or in government warehouses in the US or UK?

Bronc

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Well, there is at least one collection of photographs owned by an extremely wealthy individual that do not appear destined to see the light of day anytime soon.

There's clearly still more in archival holdings for researchers to bottom out, Duxford being a prime example.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I made further enquiries last year and was advised:Unfortunately due to staff shortages we are unable to offer research sessions at present. A new archivist will be in place by the summer and we should be able to offer research sessions after that.

We are working hard on the digitisation project and are currently cleaning the index cards ready for scanning. This is a huge project that will take us some years to complete but we hope to have started scanning the index cards by the end of the year.

In a second e-mail trying to establish the extent of what they might have Luftwaffe related, I was advised: We do have three collections of index cards relating to the German Air Force amounting to around 1000 cards.

I don't know anything more about their content at present. I do hope that helps and please do contact us in the future to arrange a research session.

Seems slim pickings but worth a look. I'll see if a summer jaunt is on at some point.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

It seems that for each one of us, this "Holy Grail" do means one person, one particular subject of our interest.
For me it was, when I was 14 years old, ALL about Major Walter Nowotny, first seen on the then greatest book I have read so far: The Big Show. Of course, to search amongst the Family papers and photographs or even have a look at his Flugbuchs would be, the Holy Grail...
Then, in the end of the 90's...after meeting Major Martin Drewes, it was all related to him. I have seen some pictures of Drewes at Ebay being sold around the 100+ Euros...OF course, I was one of those who have seen Drewes' two Albums of pictures at his home...but not his Flugbuch (which I do not know if survived).
For one period of my readings...the Holy Grail would be a full book/Research about the Heinkel 219....which seems the theme and passion of quite a number of us here...including the author and Researcher of Venlo (and I/NJG 1) who is a member of this Fórum. How nice it would be to track down all UHU fates, obtain undiscovered pictures of that machine, etc...combat reports, etc.
So, you can see that for each one of us...this is a private dream/answer...I guess the best would be to have a machine capable of returning some 70+ years on time...and do a research in loco...interviewing the persons and subjects of our dreams directly....But that would be asking too much.
I have acquired, during the years some original pictures, etc....and I am guessing what I will do (or what my wife and son will do with that if I am asked to make my final landing). Maybe, one day, we will have an International WW2 Bank Data, fully digital, etc...for future researchers...maybe...in 100 years we will discover that...
Now let us read some other answers....may have bothered you quite a lot...
Cheerio for all

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Well.....my personal 3 preferences.....KTB of JG 6, some nice Fw 190 pictures of JG 6 showing red-white-red RVT bands in December 1944....and to make the rest happy....1944 G.Qtr.Mstr. losses....... I have given up hope for two....one is still possible....

John

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

seriously - Wouldn't mind free access to all Luftwaffe documents preserved in ex-soviet archives in Russia...

unrealisticly - Rowehl's private photo albums - 35 volumes ranging from 1918 to 1945 and his loggbooks...

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I keep hearing about private collections, and there may be interesting material buried in photo albums of which even surviving family members have forgotten about. I do not want to cast the wrong light, but the average person is not very concerned about such research. And even though many books have been published, some are little known. One example concerning radar is Radarkrieg und Nachtluftverteidigung über Berlin by Helmut Bukowski (ISBN 978-3-86619-012-2).

There are some radars in there I had never seen before, including some mounted on fighters and bombers. But, I am not an expert.




Ed

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I once heard about a truck at the end of the war, loaded with Luftwaffe archives and photos, which disappeared in the chaos of 1945.

Imagine it has been hidden, in some farm, behind a wall,

and then, it suddenly reappears now, in 2016.

GC

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

For me, I still seek the elusive photograph of Hptm. Walter Rubensdörffer's Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+AB, W. Nr. 3338...

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Well I wonder what that could be, Steve...

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

You know, there are still classified documents held by the British and the Americans. For example, I discovered the US Signal Corps had taken photos of abandoned German equipment. The lesser-known American Counter-Intelligence Corps was looking for scientists and technicians after the war. They sometimes worked with the even more mysterious T-Force, a British creation with which the Americans became involved and adopted their practices. T-Force (T for target) was tasked with capturing equipment, personnel, documents, and even if it was nailed down, moving things out of the country to the US and England. And a recent book based on interviews with T-Force veterans clearly says that a good portion of what they found is still classified. T-Force had the authority to go anywhere and take what they wanted, and with an ID that stated they were not to be interfered with by the Military Police.



Ed

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Dear All,

In general, the missing 1944 operational loss reports seem to be the consensus "Holy Grail."

However, for me and Manfred Boehme personally, it would be in finding the Messerschmitt research photos. Specifically, for me it would be photos of the Me 262 HG II. For Manfred, it would be photos of the Me 262B-2.

Regards,
Richard

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I'd like to find files with the LAST 250 or so Me 262 WN that I havn't yet found.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

If the Luftwaffe research extends to Luftwaffe crashsites, there are several airmen still missing in my country, who would remain unearthed and forgotten, frustrating. I (we) need at least 3 lifes and the quest will be closed in the coming years because of lack of witnesses.

I sometimes have been lucky to find out the Graal (or a part of): for instance, (small) remains of a Giant Zeppelin Staaken crashed in August 1918.

I plan to publish my "Bible" in 2019. ;)

ClinA-78

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

For me, a fuller account of the Arado 240 and the role of the different airframes. Dr. Mankau's work shone much light, but there are still areas uncovered.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

For me it would be a set of clear photographs of the two Arado Ar 196s in Penang. I have seen one or two but they are of poor quality and not very clear.
A photograph showing the FuG 200 radar setup on the same type in the Baltic sea area in 1945 would not hurt either.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I found these images in an old magazine I have from 1974....not sure if they are what you are after but thought I'd share just in-case they were accurate G7 images. Apologies if they aren't, cheers, MP

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

One of my 'Holy Grails' would be to locate and identify the wreckage of Col. Gunther Luetzow Me262. I did see a new report (2015) that claims he crashed into the Danube.

Tony

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

For Me and the Sola aviation museum, the " Holy Grail " was when Dr. Jochen Prien responded on one of my post here regarding the serch for information to solve the indntity of our Me109 we are restoring. And tankfully for all the help / information we have got from this and other forums WE DID SOLWE IT after 28 yers due to his 3 pictures of 14055.
We still have som loose ends but 3 years ago we had nothing. So with all the dokuments / pictures evolving i recon some day we have all "her " history. The last ting i found was in january, that it was 2 pilots from 350 Belgian sqn claiming 1/2 Me109F each in the circus 200 over France. Fits with 14055 as a G1

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Hi
my personal 'gold' info on the luftwaffe aircraft in this thread
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=01+april+1941
cheers
jerry

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Well, I´d like to see...

1 - Photos of Brazilian pilot Wolfgang Ortmann.
2 - Good photos from Fw-58 as Night Fighter.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

I have seen a fw58 with radar, prob a school plane, this is what you are looking for ?

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

On a personal level, for me it would be finding my uncle's missing logbook from the BoB, and finding a good photo of his personal 109, 'Yellow 13' of 9. JG 3.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Wow-o-wow, that's incredible.

Bronc

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

April, 45.. Berlin.
Would love to know EXACTLY what landed and took off in the TierGarten. Actual logbooks and records would be great. Photos?!

Motch

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

There is an excellent, long and very detailed thread on this topic over on Axis History Forum. Have you seen it?

L.

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Hi Nick,

One of my favorite subjects as well.

FWIW, I found this photograph in the book Absturz im Kinzigtal: Die Luftfahrt im hessischen Kinzigtal von 1895 bis 1950. I have no idea if the caption is correct. I could not find an airport named 'Yael" either. There are some photographs of He 111 wrecks at Royan in Avions 132.

Hans

Re: What is the "Holy Grail" of Luftwaffe Research
 

Hello!
Your photo probably shows this He 111 during a stopover at Gael (not "Yael") airfield, ca 40km W of Rennes town.

Cordially

JVM