The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Was it the 4th FG or the 56th? And would it be possible to post their claim totals? Many thanks.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Jim, if you are counting just the air to air victories, the top scorer was the 354th FG with 701 kills and the second was Zemke's Wolfpack with 677. If you are counting the ground successes as wel, the top list is different:
1005 and a half for the 56th FG, 1002 for the 4th FG and the 354th is the third (according to my knowledge)

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

I thought that the 56th FG was the top scoring group in Europe. But then I came across a book by Grover C. Hall titled "1000 destroyed", which claims that the 4th FG was the top unit in the 8th AF.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Jim: Grover Hall wrote that book soon after the war before the decision was made to count only air victories, hence the claim.

However, it is one of the best reads, isn't it?

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

So in just air claims the 4th was the top unit? That doesn't gel with what Csaba has posted. Either way it is an excellent read - one of the best unit histories I've come across. :)

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

No, what I meant was that Hall, in the book, was claiming the 4th was tops and that included the ground credits. Csaba's air-to-air list sounds right, although I do not have the "official" credits easily at hand.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

The top group all depends on your point of view. I think aerial kills is just one fact to consider. There were so many really top notch groups (like the 325th, 357th, 355th, 18th, 49th, 475th or 354th) I really have a hard time saving one is better than the other. But if you rate they by the PR they got the the 4th & 56th were ythe tops. Just an opinion.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Wow - tough (impossible) unless you framed it with metrics of your own choice.

On the a/c destroyed question including ground - the list goes like this
4th (1011/550), 56th (989/665.5), 355th (834.5/340), 354th (?/707), 352 (777.66/502.67), 357 (702.5/595.5) where the first number is total air and ground and the second is air only.. I don't know offhand what the 354th had in ground scores so they are very close to 355th in total destroyed.

The numbers are from USAF 85 for air and 8th AF USAAF Victory Credits Board for Ground... (hence 354 not in that summary).

The 56th had the most aces. The 4th fought the longest. The 357th had the most air scores from date of first combat mission. The 355th had no ace shot down in air to air combat and had an 8:1 air to air ratio....the 354th had the most air victories and who knows what their total would have been if they had stayed attached to 8th and 51's throughout the war.

The 355th destroyed the most on the ground and lost the second most (behind the 4th) to German flak. The 4th scores don't count the Eagle Squadron scores. The 4th had the highest number of losses (241),, the 352nd the lowest (118), the 56th the second lowest (128).

I would be hard pressed to give the 'nod' to the 56th for two primary reasons, 1) the had the shorter range 47 throughout the war and missed out in some of the huge air battles fought in April and May 44 until the late model D's gave them the range to engage, and 2) only 10 more losses behind the 352nd despite fighting 6 months longer against tougher force (before Luftwaffe gutted in March, April and May 44 of it's experienced pilots).

Just opinion... someone else throw one out.

Bill

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Excellent post drgondog, that was exactly the sort of information I was looking for.The 354th spent it's time in the 9th AF didn't it? So one would think that it would have had ample opportunity to rack up a very large claim of ground kills. And wasn't the 354th FG the only unit to have a Medal Of Honor winner?

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Jim - a couple of points. First the 354FG only had 637-56-261 in USAF 85, so their WWII totals were reduced approx 70. I miscounted.

Second, Howard was the only 8th fighter pilot to get MoH (when 354FG attached to 8th) on 11 Jan 1944 when he attacked a mixed force of 110's, 109's and 190's - shooting down three, damaging three more and totally broke up the attack single handed.

This is a curious fact considering that so many DSC's awarded to 8th FC pilots probably merited MoH in other AF units.

In the 355th for example, Henry Brown attacked 6 Me 109's to save two of his squadron mates - with empty guns, chasing each one in a Lufberry and forcing them to break away one by one as he closed on their tails.

Deacon Priest rescued my father under heavy German infantry fire in another Mustang on 18 Aug 1944.

Third, I gave more thought to the 'best' and recall that you didn't limit it to WWII. The 4th in Korea did a 506-86-505 number on MiG's in the Korean War - putting another 40 pilots shooting down 5 or more.

Also - the 49th FG fought a tough war, particulary in the early days in the Pacific, and ended up with 664-56-261 plus a lot on the ground.

Opinion only as usual.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Please refer to the link below to the 354FG website home page:

http://www.354thpmfg.com/

In the center of the page, you'll see a link to a page entitled "Facts and Figures". This will provide some of the data discussed earlier in this thread. It will be interesting to find out the source of this score sheet....was it the 354FG Public Affairs ofc?

The 354FG lost many victory records during the disastrous flooding at one of their later bases (2-5) in France (Gael, Orconte, Perthes or Rosieres-en-Haye??).

If Frank Olynyk monitors this thread: Frank, any thoughts on the true total of aerial victories for the 354FG & 353FS? Many believe these were the top two scoring FG & FS in the ETO.....

Thanks all.....
Tripp

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Here is the scoresheet: Facts and Figures

(this can be found in History in the Sky) Frank Olynyk: has this been verified as an accurate tally of group official records?

Thanks,
Tripp

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

This list only show FG from the ETO (elseif the 49th and 31st would appears in it) and the reason of the order is hard to identify.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

The victory credit totals at USAFHRC updates based on solid evidence submitted and verifiable from such sources as LW KUJ reports attached to MACRs, enemy intelligence, etc but the databases are impossible to get to. Frank Olynyk, Jack Cook have contributed to such additions. I have also placed three into the record for what it is worth.

That said, USAF 85 was the foundation and the bedrock for all subsequent fighter victory air credits. The 8th AF Victory Credits Board posted both air and ground scores in June 1945. It was the basis for the USAF Study 85 Air Victory Credits.

The 354th totals in USAF 85 are 599 but Frank Olynyk was able to retrieve (IIRC) the April, 1945 'missing' IX AF VCB confirmations ~ 37. The ground score credit validation process was spotty in comparison between ETO/MTO and PTO/CBI theatres - so the answer to 'top scorer for WWII' is an interesting exercise in comparing contrasting, impeachable, and incomplete data.

Jack identified the top US Victory Credit Fighter Group (tongue in cheek) by 'press' when he identified the 4th and 56th FG - but the answer to Top US FG - all wars - is the 4th FG when you bring the Korean War 4th FIW into the picture.

As to all other 'air to air' - by virtue of USAF 85, it is 56th FG at 665.5, 49th FG 664, 354 FG 637 , 357 FG 595, 31st FG 582

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

I have not been able to locate the missing XIX TAC VCB reports. I compiled the list of late war 354th FG victories from the daily OpSums (Mission Reports) of the 354th, which can be found both at USAFHRA at Maxwell AFB and the National Archives NARA II facility in College Park, Maryland. I also found at NARA II two notebooks which listed all the missions of the 354th, number of planes from each squadron, leader, target, claims and losses (it also notes when MIA personnel returned). One of the notebooks also listed the various VCB reports with 354th FG claims, and the number of claims in each report. It listed the missing VCB reports, and the total number of claims matched the unreported claims that I found in the OpReps. I therefore concluded that all these missing claims were confirmed by the VCB reports.

I am still looking for the missing VCB reports. The only place I can think of that might have them would be Quesada's World War 2 papers, and I do not know where they are located. Possibly the family of a member of the VCB might also have copies of the reports.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Frank:

You mentioned the 354th OpSums, but I wasn't clear whether those are the same as the unit war diary available from USAFHRA.

I have the 368th FG war diary on microfilm and when I had more time (many years ago as a student) I found references to/copies of VCB confirmations relating to aerial victories of the 368th's pilots, including my Great Uncle's lone aerial victory on 8 December 1944.

Specifically, I have the VCB report of 10 Dec 1944 regarding the claims on 8 Dec 1944 and the confirmation report on 12 Feb 1945.

I would scan it for reference, but the copy I have is almost illegible (looks like it was a multi-generation copy of a faint original). Searching for these would likely be tedious work, and the existence of such confirmations might vary widely based on unit record-keeping practices, but it might turn up the lost XIX TAC reports relating to the 354th's time in the 9th AF.

I hope this isn't redundant and might be a fruitful line of inquiry.

Best regards,
Paul Dame

Re: The Top US Fighter Group?
 

Paul - the missing VC's are April/May 1945 for XIX TAC.

Extrapolating the 354FG Claims to VCB awards would yield 'close' with most likely movement from Claim to Credit in moving Probable to Damaged.