New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srTeisH09Ko

Lt. Friedrich-Karl Bühmann JG/52

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Excellent, more Russian grave-robbers at work. Disgusting.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

well...most of the wreck is going to the local museum...but I did not like how they handled his ring...should have left it with him, on his hand.

Mike

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Sickening

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Hello,

I have posted the news in question in the following topic:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=44975
In the topic the reference to the search group forum topic:
http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/forum/...109.html#19952

They try to find the pilot's relatives in Germany (incl. through Volksbund) to return them the pilot's personal property, including the ring. The ring was used obviously by several generations because diameter in rear part was changed. They tried to use ring image to identify the pilot because Bf109’s WNr was discovered later and because Volksbund’s initial identification through Dogtag number was incorrect for some unknown reason.

The search group members thought that Il-2 crashed in the place in question. It was planned to bury the mortal remains of the crew on the memorial cemetery with war honors as usual. But they has found the Bf109.
The rests of the founded German militaries will be buried on Volksbund cemetery probably, as usual.

The some forum members comments with labeling of unknown for them persons as “Russian grave-robbers” are disgusting certainly.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Crude and rude method however.

ClinA-78

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I also think that some previous comments are too superficial, heavy and rude
Giampiero Piva

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

When you have family members whose graves were desecrated by marauding bands of Soviets, you'll get your back up. These guys are definitely not archaeologists, judging from the way they handled this dig. Indefensible.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I've seen photos from other salvage operation in western europe and in many cases they showed the same way of working as what you see on that Russian recovery. Now a days, in western europe, it is much more regulated and salvage/recovery by hobby people became less. On the other hand, if these people did not recover the remains of the pilot he would still be were he crashed, now there is a change that relatives will know what happened and get back the personel effects.

Is that Prestone (German equivalent) coolant in the hole?
 

At the 4:18 min mark (in the video) a green fluid appears in the bottom of the hole (that was dry before and dry after) and it's plainly visible until the 5:00 min mark. The liquid looks identical to the Prestone coolant then in use by American liquid-cooled aircraft, and I assume the backhoe punctured the header tank. Does this seem plausible?

Bronc

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I couldn't help how this clip made me feel and had no hesitation in stating so. Sorry if that was superficial, heavy or rude.... Call it the truth.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

That was about the method deployed by the team (call it dig or sa(u)lvage), which lacks sensitivity/tact before sending it to the world's eyes.
As an amateur (and not archaeologist) I use to manage recoveries, now with authority collaboration. There are basic rules as such as... "not digging above the wreckage, if deeper, go larger, etc."

So back to the topic, dig done, hoping the artefacts will return to the family.

ClinA-78

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

To me a grave robber is someone who intrudes on a formal burial site for financial gain. Again only my opinon but in this case the location was a unknown place of death rather than a formal or registered grave and without the dig the location of the death of this pilot would have remained unknown . Hopefully any human remains found will be treated with respect and given a formal resting place as Andrey indicates. While their methods are described as crude are they not the same methods employed by recovery groups elsewhere . I was more concerned that as shown on other vids of recoveries deep excavations with vertical sides are being entered and undermined at depth without any shoring. With such deep digs those working in them are putting themselves at considerable risk of a possible collapse, sometimes caused by the weight of the digger at the edge of the dig. Without shoring the dig sides should be angled back to reduce the risk of collapse. This would of course result in a much bigger hole and would need a larger digger with a longer arm . I suppose though because there has been no report of any collapse on such digs the risks will continue to be taken . At least it appears that the remains of this pilot will now be placed amonst his comrades in a formal grave . No offence meant to anyone just my thoughts .

Re: Is that Prestone (German equivalent) coolant in the hole?
 

No, it does not. It was written (in Russian though) that these guys were about to pour a mix of antifreeze and hydraulic liquid over the ground, probably to soften it up.

I would not call them grave robbers. They documented their find on camera and posted it on the internet, which is something that no grave robber would ever contemplate to do. To me, we can discuss about the methods, but it all seems fair play.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

So if they poured that mix, they really deserved the crude method! The soil seems already soggy. However, the wreckage, itself, is a source of pollution...
I am rather thinking about Farbbeutel? I have already seen that kind of greenish color.

ClinA-78

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

After 70+ years being buried in the ground, I would not expect any liquid remaining in aircraft as a potential source of pollution. However, if you want to believe that it was the case, that is alright - I provided you with the correct translation, you draw your own conclusions.

Re: Is that Prestone (German equivalent) coolant in the hole?
 

In the video and on the forum they says it is a mix of liquids from the Bf109 systems. The wreck lays on the clay sheet so the liquid remained on the place.

Re: Is that Prestone (German equivalent) coolant in the hole?
 

Thank you for the translation proper. My apology.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

It's common knowledge that the Russians are looting war graves all over eastern Europe, do a search and you'll find all the videos. I don't see how these guys are much different, ripping jewelry off the fingers of dead people. Revolting. Period.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

And where is the market for this stuff? What's the difference between the evil, ugly and dirty looters in Russia (or in Cambodia in the 70s, or Iraq and Syria today) and shiny, happy and wealthy collectors in the west? To me they are the same sort of scum. And in this particular case I can only see that an aviator will receive a decent burial after more than 70 years.

Boris

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

My two cents...

Fluids are common. I have been involved with a few recoveries and many times coolant and fuel still remains.

These wrecks in the East are not being recovered because they want to "finally give the pilot a burial"....or for "historical purposes".

They are being recovered for money and the VALUE of the wreckage. If these were worth scrap value, no one would be doing it.

If it were not for the collectors in the West...AS WELL as the collectors in the EAST (trust me, there are a lot)...no one would be bothering to recover or dig for these wrecks.

This specific wreck was not really dug "carefully"...I cringed every time the backhoe tore into the fuselage when trying to pull it up.

Everything was done with haste...which is why people are a bit upset.

Already parts from the wreck are being sold for money...

Mike

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Where?

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Boris, you are a deluded piece of work.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Please explain your comment. Personal attacks are not allowed on this board.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I assume he is referring to Boris stating that us "Western Collectors" are "all scum"...and are "no different than grave-robbing looters."

:)

Mike

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Perhaps you can point out to the rest of us where these particular items are being sold on the internet or elsewhere (as per Rasmussen's original query above)? Without providing such evidence, there is really no proof of the foul play here.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I'd suspect you get no response ...

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

No response is tacit admission of the evidence lacking, so it is all alright...

Perhaps the subject is exhausted now, too bad that potentially interesting thread turned out almost political.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

About the greenish color, is the farbbeutel still an hypothesis?

Already seen this color involving wreckage with body (to remain in this grim reality).

ClinA-78

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Well....The reason why I know why parts being are sold...it because I bought some of them.

I have numerous contacts in Russia, and some of the people on the recovery team kept what the museum did not want.

They then offered the parts for sale on various Russian forums.

I knew about the wreck and acquired the parts before the video was posted online.

I was not in any way saying it was BAD that the parts were being sold. I rather save the parts than have them be thrown out or scrapped.

The StuG III that was pulled from a bog a few years back (see youtube) was taken apart and sold for parts..as a perfect example.

When these Me109 parts were offered, I grabbed them, so they were not sent to the scrapper.

Mike

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I agree with Boncazonk, that the greenish fluid is coolant. I was a deputy coroner for 9 years and have dealt with human remains is many different conditions. There is no anatomical reason for that color fluid to be related to humans. As far as a 'Farbbeutel', I have never heard of that being used by fighters. The fluid's appearance is definitely glycol IMHO.

Tony

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

By 'deluded' I'm referring to his somewhat sweeping comments regarding collectors being akin to grave robbers. Outstanding. And so these 'philanthrops' are making a profit from this 'dig'? Why am I not surprised.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...I am going to disagree with your comment.

What profit?

Do you know how much it costs to recover a wreck like that?

When items were dug up from Freeman Field a few years ago...The Museum kept what they wanted...and gave the rest to the dig team. It cost the dig team around $30,000.00...and they did not get $30,000.00 in return.

They sold what they did not want, and were able to make "some" of their money back.

This is common practice. It covered some the dig expenses and the time to recover the items.

I think you need to look at the realities of "costs" before concluding that the dig team "sold item to make profit".

Though they were a bit "rough" with the dig...nothing they did during the dig, was out of the ordinary...nor what they did with the parts afterwards.

I have been involved with numerous digs and talking from experience.

Maybe you need to step back and think before you jump to conclusions?

Just a thought...

Mike

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

I agree
Giampiero Piva

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

OK, perhaps coolant (I never said it was human fluid), but I have seen this liquid also in ...a FW 190 crashsite whose pilot was missing (and still there).

I have personally found the (empty) bag of a Farbbeutel, without noting colored liquid (soil was quite dry), on another FW 190 (whose pilot was killed). And yes, it was individual equipment.

Up today, I have managed 11 recoveries (not for "business" or looting, just for historical purpose, a goal which becomes seldom... ;) ) and attended many more but every dig brings more question than answer that why I ask.

Best regards

ClinA-78

PS : the comments about this topic don't surprise me...

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

No, I think I'll stick with my conclusions, thank you very much. How about this: you're the family of the dead guy, and you get to see these Russians dig up your relative and play with his bones, all accompanied by tasteless music. Give your collective heads a shake.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Those are empty bones that his soul left long ago.

Sounds like there is a lot of Russian hatred and discrimination in your posts, as opposed to actual reality and rational thought.

How about this:

If he was a known Nazi who murdered 100 Jews before breakfast...and then shot down 2 B-17's killing all crew, including your father...would you care or be having the same thoughts into how the recovery was handled..or comment on the method in which they removed his ring to find his ID?

Probably not.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Gent's,

I would appreciate a reply (or a kind of) before this thread would be closed...

Thanks

ClinA-78

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

Buehmann's body was literally smashed and dismembered during the crash. Russians in subject collected what they could and it was a really hard work. Now Buehmann's remains can be buried in his hometown with all respects etc.

But some mentally handicapped persons call it 'a playing with bones'.

What a nice joke.

Re: New Me109 Wreck Discovered. ** Some Graphic Content
 

It doesn't sound like that at all to me, it sounds like a criticism of bad archaeological practice. I hope and believe that the majority of contributors here would want human remains to be treated with respect when a wreck is excavated and it's hard to see how your baseless set of "what if's?" contributes anything to the discussion.