German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello there gentlemen,

this is a compilaton of the German top day fighter aces by plane.
I'm still very intrested in Dassow's Me 410 score.

• Bf 109: Erich Hartmann
• Fw 190: Otto Kittel
• Bf 110: Eduard Tratt and maybe Werner Thierfelder
• Me 262: Georg-Peter Eder
• Me 410: Rudolf Dassow
• Ju 87: Egbert Jaekel
• Ju 88: Dieter Meister
• He 111: Arnold Döring
• Hs 123: Alfred Druschel
• He 51: Herwig Knüppel (Spanish Civil War)
• Ta 152: Josef Keil

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Michael,

Bf 109: Lipfert, or others, but not Hartmann. (Hartmann's still living world record is rather the shame, not the fame of the Luftwaffe.)

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hi Michael.

Top Me262 ace would not be Eder. Welter in theory, but dis-honesty aside, I would go for Bär or Rademacher.

Johannes

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Johannes,

I included Welter in my night fighter ace list
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45031
as he argued to have claimed 25 night kills and 2 day kills in the Me 262.
My Eder conjecture stems from
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html
Dropping him, the next candidates might be me Bär and Rademacher indeed.
But what about Franz Schall ?

Have a nice Saturday,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hi Michael

With Welter the problem is that there is little proof that his Me262 total is correct, or where it came from.

With Eder. Almost all the time period that he flew the Me262 is covered by the Micro Films, and whereas his comrades claims are confirmed by the micro films, Eder's are not!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Johannes,

I heard the Welter Me 262 score stems from himself. Being interrogated by the Allied after the war he alleged that he had downed 27 planes in the Me 262.

Intresting Eder aspect.

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

The eternal wrangling over top scores, and all 'scores' whether 'confirmed' or more appropriately 'recognized by a formal authority' seems pointless as the depth of records from all parties, for all claims and losses are simply not available in quality and veracity by disinterested third parties.

God knows but he is unavailable to historians.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hi Michael

I think by memory that Johann Krause usually flew a Do217.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Agree, most books depict that fact.

Nick

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

You're right, I've included Johann Krause in my
German night fighter aces by plane list
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45031
and determined a most probable Do 217 score of 18 or 19, which might give him the lead before Radusch (~17).

Have a nice evening,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good afternoon,

from Peter (PMoz99) I learned that Georg Brütting in "Das waren die deutschen Stuka-Asse 1939-1945" (1995) might have been wrong when he wrote on page 98 that Alfred Druschel scored seven kills with the Hs 123.

We know from Johannes that Druschel's seven kills were scored on 22. and 23. June 1941 and from that website
http://ww2.dk/air/lehr/lg2.htm
we know that Druschel's unit, 4./LG2, was equipped with the Bf109E for the whole year 1941.

Can anybody confirm that Druschel flew a Bf109E and not a Hs123 when scoring his kills ?

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

by courtesy of Andrew Arthy, Johannes, Peter Mosler (PMoz99), Matti Salonen and Evgeny Velichko I learned more about the most probable plane flown by Alfred Druschel when scoring his seven kills on 22./23.Jun1941.
The answers had a range from ‘Yes, he claimed all his victories in the Bf109E’ to ‘Druschel stopped flying the Hs123 in mid1940' to ‘We nee his flugbuch/combat report to know’.

The following statements about the equipment of his unit are of interest:

• II./LG2 had 2 Bf109 Staffeln and 1 Hs123 Staffel in preparation for the Balkans campaign
• II./LG2 had 38 Bf109’s and 22 Hs123's at the start of Barbarossa
• II./LG2 reports a mix of Hs123’s and Bf109’s destroyed or damaged on 22/23Jun1941, the Hs123 losses might have been suffered by 10./LG2 which was attached to II./LG2
• 4./LG2 had the last Hs123 loss on 5Jun1940, the first Bf109 loss on 3Sep1940, all losses after that were Bf109’s

It seems more like Druschel was flying a Bf109 and Georg Brütting’s statement remains the only one that clearly indicates a Hs123.
But: If anybody has ever scored 7 kills in the Hs123 at any time, then it might have been Druschel in the first two days of Barbarossa, right ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Michael.
Haha, yes, you can still live in hope on that one! So many things are not certain.
Cheers
Peter

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Keep laughing.
I'll find evidence for one plane or for the other, come what may.

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

The old History of the German Nightfighter Force by Gebhard Aders tells us that Arnold Döring rigged up a He111 for nightfighting against Russian nuisance raids so you might wish to update your lists accordingly

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Nick, Does the reference give any details of the modifications made?
Peter

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Yes,

It was a matter of rigging up Heinkel 111 with extra guns in the nose. The low speed of the Heinkel made it better suited to the slow-flying Russian night bombers.

Please forgive my paraphrasing but I gave the book away to one of my friends once Theo Boiten's 2 volume Nachtjagd War Diaries were released.

...But if needs be I can visit him and get the page number and the actual quote. Just let me know if it's vital to have it and I'll get the details for you.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Not vital Nick, just interested. Don't go out of your way, but if it falls in your lap, let me know ....
Chewers

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Top 'alleged' scorer on the HE162 must be Adolf Dickfeld?

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Or, if the old Barbas "Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" books are anything to go by, Rudolf Schmitt

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Vin,

you may be right about Dickfeld:
http://luftwaffe.cz/dickfeld.html
but I included onyl those aces with 5 or more kills scored in the plane type.

Hello Nick,

a He 111 turned into a night fighter ? Fascinating !
However this website
http://luftwaffe.cz/doring.html
indicates three TB-3 kills by night and 7 MiG's by day.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Given that Gebhard Aders' book is so old, it may well be out of date info. But some sources credit him with as many as 10 Soviet night kills.

Perhaps a good decider will be Theo Boiten's upcoming multi-volume set on the Nightfighter force.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

If it did in fact happen, it would have been in the second half of 1942, and going by III./KG55 dispositions the period may have been only from around 25 August to 25 October.
The He111H-6 did have a nose mounted 20mm cannon as an option, and that would have given it some punch, but there were also field modifications made.
I've attached a pic of one as an example. This one supposedly flew in the Moscow sector in late 1942.
Cheers
Peter

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good evening Peter, Nick and Vince,

Georg Brütting writes that Arnold Döring flew as an observer from November 1940 until Summer 1942 in 9./KG53, after that one year in KG55. 348 missions as Kampfflieger, 10 kills as Kampfflieger in the East.

Hugh Morgan and John Weal write that Rudolf Schmitt's He 162 claim was not allowed and credited to a flak unit instead.

Greetings from rainy Brandenburg,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Thanks for the clarification, Michael. When I corresponded with Dickfeld, he wrote that there were several claims with JG 'Hitler Jugend' which were of course never confirmed.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good point. I checked Barbas (would rather do that than consult John "plagiarism" Weal any day...) and it states what you said about the victory being disallowed and credited to the Flak unit. It might still be worth annotating in your lists because after all, what official confirmation would Dickfeld's claim have received in comparison?

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good evening Vince,

you corresponded with Adolf Dickfeld ?
And he said his Hitler-Jugend claims were unconfirmed ?

Just checked that he reached the age of 99 years (!)

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hum... These claims by Dickfeld are like the one by Ihlefeld (the difference is that Ihlefeld did not aknowledge it), pure fantasy. JG 200, JG 80 or JG "Hitler Jugend" was just a paper unit... and not for a long time !

The only know claim was as you guys said by Rudolf Schmitt but he only claimed a "damaged".

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Exactly, some very basic research (not just believing whatever appears in a book) will show how unlikely Dickfeld's He 162 stories were.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good morning,

I think Dickfeld isn't even mentioned in the OSPREY volume about the He 162.
https://www.amazon.de/162-Volksjager...C3%A4ger+units
Hmm, I wonder if an aircraft of such extremely limited service deserves book in the OSPREY Combat Aircraft series.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

"Hmm, I wonder if an aircraft of such extremely limited service deserves book in the OSPREY Combat Aircraft series."

The He 162 did enter operational service and has been the subject of much bigger books. It is simply a matter of what the authors' research can bring to light.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

I don't know, I have the Classic volume by the same author (and read lately a good article in a French bookazine) so I am not much interested by it. A good share of Osprey books are reduced rewritten variants of previous book, that's good if you can't afford the original books or if they are no longer available. Also if the first book is well regarded you can be confident in the new one, as the Osprey collections are very variable in quality.

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Hello Alfred,

you may be right. I think that especially the "Aircraft of the Aces" series has very much appeal to the average airwar enthusiast like me. That's why it seems always a good (financial) option to use it as a platform for a wide range of a non-professional audience. They even transformed the OSPREY Combat Aircraft volumes of István Toperczer into the OSPREY Aircraft of the Aces Series. The word "aces" still makes people buy books.
You're also right about the variable quality of the books in the series.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

I wonder if Herbert Ihlefeld scored 128 or 129 kills in the Bf109.
Can anybody tell me the dates of 22 claims after 22Apr1942 ?

Michael

Re: German day fighter top aces by plane
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

does anybody know what aircraft type Eduard Tratt was flying when he scored his May and June 1943 kills ?
Bf110 ? Me 410 ? Fw 190 ?

Cheers,

Michael