Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

My suggestion, as it pertains to Hartmann, would be to establish a Hartmann working group comprised of the experts on this forum. We have all of the people required on this forum to finally, and definitely, resolve this matter. Furthermore, we have experts who could structure, document and mediate the effort to ensure maximum accuracy and fairness.

In my mind, the Hartmann issue is a tough one. The pilots of the Luftwaffe knew who the fakers and over-claimers were, and those people were not asked to join the post-WWII German air force. Hartmann was asked to join, and he was well regarded within the Luftwaffe and post war. This alone is definitive evidence in my mind that the issue is far more complex than merely comparing records in Germany and Russia.

In my opinion, the members of this forum have the resources and capability to accurately address this matter in an ethical manner. And we should. (Not 'me' of-course, I'm completely out of my depth, but the usual suspects. Everyone knows who they are.)

Such an effort, one that discloses it's research methodology and principles from the very beginning would be credible, and the work would be historic.

In the end, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, as I'm sure we all do.

Bronc

Re: Establish a Hartmann 'Working Group'
 

Bronc,

In February, 2014 in the topic called: "German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...", #125, 133, 139, 140, etc. we have already gone through many of these details. Huge difference in reliability between Hartmann, Lipfert and others. And I am not the only one who says this, but even some Russian researchers as well. But from the distance of over 70 years, I do not know any better method to clarify things other than comparing written records of German and Russian Archives. The Russian records are excellent, listing their planes in service quarterly, as well as their losses by AC S/N, engine S/N, etc... in multiple levels of records.

Again, I do not say that Hartmann didn't encounter his reported opponents, I just say that most of his credited 'victories' finally returned to their base and after repair went back to service = weren't real victories.
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Establish a Hartmann 'Working Group'
 

That's exactly what I meant. Great suggestion, Sir !
The issue definitely deserves a another thread than this - or much better - your proposed "Hartmann Working Group" made up of the most renowned experts dealing with the matter in a scientific and fair way.

To answer Nick's question: As a mere member of the audience I prefer the info that is substantiated by evidence or eminence until the results of that working group are published.

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Here's a start, needs some work I now, but for what it's worth.

Hartmann's known claims:
No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known.
No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)
No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date
No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA
No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)
No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA
No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)
Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date
Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day
No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA
No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived
Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded
No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss
No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely
No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time
No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)
Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)
No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did
No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann
Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed
No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)
Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA
No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut
No. 306, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy
No.307, Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial perhaps 32(292)14. gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA
No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev
No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar
No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA
No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area
Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).
No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Hi Folks,

Alright, again. Hartmann's claim list is LESS THAN POOR. Full of fantasy, - UNLESS his reported victory times and locations are completely inaccurate. (But then how can you trust them??????????) The soviets had reported the hours and minutes of their losses, the reported times in Hartmann's claims are usually 1-2 hrs off! That's way too big time difference to accept them, especially, when other pilots claimed them with much better accuracy both in time and location. So probably you understand why I say his '352' is just fantasy and a nice fairy tale and he had max. 100-150 real victories AT BEST, not 352! Also have to mention, that with the same method and criterias, eg. Lipfert's claims were 90+ % accurate (both time- and locationwise), matching the soviet reports, so it is NOT the method, the data, or the reports, - IT IS THE PILOT...! Other pilots with less victories were much more accurate than him!

Based on Hartmann's victory list on: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

305: OVERCLAIM - 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306: ? (NOT in 5 VA for sure, no data from 8 VA) 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307: OVERCLAIM - 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307: OVERCLAIM - 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308: OK - 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m - Teplishev Yak-9T
309: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: ??? - 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m Kotlyar Yak-1b other claims in same area and time frame as well
311: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m - Only La-5 loss at 15:20, but soviets: downed by flak and 2 Fw 190s!
314: OVERCLAIM - 16.11.1944 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: ~OK - 16.11.1944 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316: OVERCLAIM - 17.11.1944 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m - Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy claimed a Boston at Ocsa where the soviets confirmed their loss, his German wingman, Hartmann claimed another Boston closer to Budapest where soviets confirmed none. NO MORE Boston loss this day, other than a ferry accident at the Romanian border...
317: OVERCLAIM - 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318: OK - 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m

Most of his claims (with the given times and locations) cannot be matched to the soviet losses, described with details in the soviet reports. I closed Hartmann's case for myself once and for all as most of his biographies are completely wrong about his (real) victories, no matter who wrote them. Certainly I am not saying that he did not get credit for 352, what I am saying is that most of that 352 was wrong and perhaps he wasn't even among the 10 best German fighter pilots of WWII. (I have no idea why he was chosen for such a statistical propaganda of the Luftwaffe.) Certainly to get a more accurate picture of his WWII career his other claims should be checked, which are out of my focus and research. So please, anyone who can, come forth and help to clarify this issue.
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Always happy to help...

(...a big acknowledgement to yourself and Nokose by the way....)

Otherwise, the silence on this matter is deafening. Funny how they all go quiet once the speculation ends....

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

And here's at least one discrepancy I have found:

27.10.44
Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim….

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=1262&page=11; http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...d=1#post218714

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Yes, Knut was downed in his Saratov-built early Yak-3 (№3912) by 16 Fw 190s and 4 Bf 109s at 15:42 (Moscow time, - 13:42 local) and was injured. His opponent was most likely Fritz Schröter (Stab.I/SG 10, Fw 190F) at 13:30 as per Tony Wood's list. NO WAY he was downed by Hartmann at 10:16....!

"15:42 6 Як-3 вед подп-к Боровой Н-2000 м с аэр Господский Двор прикрывала войска Наиредьхаза. Встретили 16 ФВ-190 и 4 Ме-109. Прикрывал ведущего во время атаки, сам был атакован и сбит. / Сбил 1 Ме-109 и сам был сбит, ожоги лица и рук. Выпрыгнул на парашюте южнее Ниредьхаза. (Nyíregyháza, Hungary) Вскоре был забран местными мадьярами и передан немцам. 29.10.44 был направлен Мишкольц (Miskolc), допрос, пото м в Будапешт, сначала в тюрьму, потом в госпиталь военнопленных. Вначале в Буде, потом в Пеште. Там встретил Сисько. 2.12.44 эвакуация госпиталя в Дьер (Győr, Hungary)."

By the way, see Knut's and their Yak-3s pic from the front newspaper of Knut's 5th soviet Air Army (April, 1945 issue).

Cheers,
Gabor

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

"Hartmann's claims are usually 1-2 hrs off"

Were the USSR and the Germans using the same time zone, or did the Germans stick to Berlin time? There were periods on the western front when the Allies and Germans were one or two hours apart, depending on when they changed from summer to winter, for example.

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Hi Nick,
The 2 hrs time zone difference between the soviet and German reports seems to be constant (in Hungary), plus Berlin and Budapest are both in the same time zone.
(But in Knut's case, for instance, it is still much more difference than that and his Yak-3 was the ONLY YAK COMBAT LOSS in the air on October 27, 1944 for the 5 VA covering the Nyiregyhaza area. The other 2 Yaks of 513 IAP on Debrecen airfield (1 Yak-1b - №20150 - written off by October 27, 1944, 1 Yak-9T - № 2515338, written off by the November 2, 1944 mechanical report) were destroyed on the ground... 8 Bf 109s and 6 Fw 190s' low level strafing on Debrecen airfield:

- destroyed 1 Yak-1b, and 1 Yak-9 from 513 IAP on the ground, injured 4 people (including Yak-9 pilot, A. P. Kutuzov+),
- burned 3 930 NBAP Po-2/U-2: (№8257, №127107, №167109), while damaging 7,
- damaged 2 451 ShAP IL-2s,
- damaged 2 18 TAP planes. From readiness only one soviet Yak-1b could take off under heavy fire...)

Sorry, no excuse for Hartmann...

Gabor

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Gabor and Nick
thanks for your Hartmann info.

Juha

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

You are most welcome.
Gabor

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Juha,

Anytime.

Nick

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

I've read ..and exploited... the Khazanov article "352 victories ..or 80?" which appeared a few years ago in the French 'Le Fana de l'Aviation'. Khazanov's 'research' as presented in the article details a number of occasions when Hartmann claimed multiple victories and where the VVS suffered few or no losses at all.

* 29.05.1944: During the Soviet air strike against the Romanian airbase of Novela, Erich Hartmann claimed three "LaGG-7s" (La-5s) shot down. The Soviet 5 VA did suffer losses - three Il-2, but the 302 IAD, which provided escort for the attack and was equipped with the La-5FN, did not suffer any losses ..

* 4.06.1944: on this date during the fourth sortie of the day, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were jumped by two Airacobras, with Hartmann shooting down both P-39s. Khazanov determined that they would have been the Airacobras flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both Airacobras returned home "..without a scratch! "

* 4.07.1944: Hartmann claimed three Il-2s north of Yassy, which were attacking German artillery positions. The formation attacked by Hartmann were 12 Il-2s of the 2 ShAK led by Leytenant Frolov, but they lost only one Shturmovik, which made a belly-landing in Soviet-held territory.

* 24.08.1944: on this day Hartmann claimed his victories Nos.299 to 303 over the Soviet beachhead of Sandomierz across the Vistula river - all four were P-39s. The only unit equipped with Aircobras providing cover to Sandomierz were from the elite 9 GIAD led by Polkovnik Aleksandr Pokryshkin - they sustained no losses in air combat that day. One Soviet P-39 pilot was reported missing after becoming separated from his comrades, "...who may have been downed by Hartmann. "..But at most Hartmann could score only one victory that day, never four...."

On 20 August 1943 Hartmann himself was shot down: according to his account (in Toliver), he dispatched two Il-2s before being hit by anti-aircraft fire. He managed to belly-land and was captured for a short period of time (later he evaded). In fact Khazanov was able to determine, that according to Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP. One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw a "Messer" jump his comrade V. Ermakov, who , firing at close range managed to put a 20-mm burst into the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - this was Hartmann's Bf.109 G-6. No Il-2 were lost by 232 ShAP that day, although two were damaged. Once again, Hartmann's "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case both were in good faith). And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.

Khazanov conceeds that indeed Hartmann was a dangerous opponent, crediting him with at least two victories against Soviet aces: on 16.10.1943 he shot down the La-5 of Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Nikitovich Sytov (30 victories, 5 GIAP), and on 1.03.1945 the Yak-9 of Kapitan Sergey Ivanovich Lazarev (728 IAP, 256 IAD), but not before Lazarev shot down the Bf 109 G-14 of Hartmann's wingman G. Kapito (Lazarev's victory No.26)..."

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Thanks, Falke Eins.

But let's get back on topic if all of this is such a completely different thread.

How about we ask Knusel to clarify his aim. Which of the following is he actually trying to achieve:

Re-writing or updating the lists of aces in the back of such books as Barbas's Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, or perhaps more comprehensively the one in the back of Toliver and Constable's Horridoh...
...and then combined with those in the unit histories published by Prien, Roekker et al....?

Knusel, Michael if you prefer, some of us are confused and would sincerely like to know how best we can assist you. Please clarify...

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

As per Nikita Egorov:

106. OVERCLAIM 26.09.1943 7:05 P-39
107. OVERCLAIM 26.09.1943 9:55 P-39

163. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:15 P-39 - in fact P-39 of 69 GIAP flown by st.-leyt. Belyayev. It was only slightly damaged.
164. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:20 P-39
165. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:30 P-39

192. OVERCLAIM 04.02.1944 11:40 P-39
193. OK 26.02.1944 9:08 P-39 - P-39 of 129 GIAP flown by ml.-leyt. Leontiy Zadiraki. Pilot baled out.
194. OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 9:16 P-39
195. OK 26.02.1944 11:45 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Demchenko. Belly landed and repaired later.
196. OK 26.02.1944 11:48 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Mamin. Pilot baled out.
197. OK 26.02.1944 11:53 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by st.-leyt. Rybakov. Pilot baled out.
198. OK 26.02.1944 11:58 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Zinchenko. Pilot killed.
199. POSSIBLE 26.02.1944 12:03 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Motuzko (shared with Walter Krupinski). Belly landed and repaired later.
200. POSSIBLE BUT LIKELY OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 14:40 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Vodolazhski (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick). Pilot baled out.
201. POSSIBLE 26.02.1944 14:45 P-39 P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Oleynikov (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick).
202. POSSIBLE BUT LIKELY OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 14:50 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Lusto (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick). Belly landed and repaired later.

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Also I have this though I can't remember the source:

1. OK 05.11.1942 12:05 Il-2 - Il-2 of 7 GShAP
2. OVERCLAIM 27.01.1943 11:30 MiG-1
3. POSSIBLE 09.02.1943 10:20 LaGG-3 - shared with Ernst Lohberg, Helmut Friese and Adalbert Sommer

352. OVERCLAIM 08.05.1945 9:00~ Jak-9

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 

Hi FalkeEins,

If you remember the number of the issues of Fana de l'Aviation and Air Magazine you mention in your article, can you provide them please.

Regards

Alfred

Preserving the Hartmann Data
 

All of the incredibly valuable Hartmann claim data that's been posted into this thread is going to get lost in a forest of threads unless we find a way to tag it. (It's probably too late to add, "(Hartmann Claim Data)" to the title.)

Suggestions?

Bronc

Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

This new thread is in response to members' suggestions for a discussion comparing Hartmann's individual claims to what can be established from the documented losses of his opponents.

I've transferred relevant posts from an older thread to this one. Hope that suits everyone.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Thanks Nick,

It just means that in the other thread, where for example Gabor thanked me and I told him "You're welcome", posts such as those make no more sense LOL

...Pointing out in friendly spirit....


Nick

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Give me the post numbers and I'll move them here.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Nick,

Roughly 21 thru 26

Other Nick

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Sorry, I put this at first onto the original thread.

IMHO I’d not like to speak honesty/dishonesty even if there are cases of fraudulent claimers. Just because it much easier to dig out real world facts than figure out someone's motives. I think it simply the question that some can appraise the results of their actions more objectively than others. And then there is the effect of used tactic, Hartmann preferred hit and run tactic and as in the case of the Flying Tigers, this easily produced overclaims. Lipfert, who seems to be exceptionally objective claimer, was more diverse in tactics he used and didn’t shun close in dogfights. He also seems to be above average in a/c recognition, which made it easier to verify his claims.



Juha
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/buttons/edit.gif

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

More for Hartmann:

328: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m (One 486 IAP La-5FN loss (S/N: 39212724, Snagovskii KIA) at 11:55 over Ercsi- too big difference. A recce. La-5 pair against 6 Fw 190s. 2nd La-5FN (S/N: 39211776) of 177 GvIAP (pilot: Vereshak) was downed around 14:05 in dogfight/flak.)
330: OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: ???, probably OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m (2 Yak-9 losses of 513 IAP, but one was a landing accident in soft soil at 13:20 after IL-2 escort (Fokin, Yak-9D, S/N: 19166063), the other one (Fedosov, Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361) was downed at 13:50 by flak. 513 IAP also lost one of their Po-2 messenger biplanes: S/N: 640314, pilot: Durakhov. All 3 pilots were OK. 150 GvIAP lost a Yak-3 after Baracska mission at 1000 m against 20 Fw 190s on landing at their airfield: S/N: 2329218 at 14:50, pilot: Kamanian was unhurt.)

Gabor

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Interesting stuff...

But does any of this really matter?

I mean...what is the point?

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

To me it matters to establish what really happened. I realise it won't change the outcome of the war but we may understand it a little better.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Was Hartmann's appearance, presence and success known to the Soviet's? I seem to remember reading that the Russians placed a reward (bounty) on Hartmann's life, and his aircraft. Can this be confirmed in Soviet records? Also, was Hartmann's uniquely painted aircraft known to the Soviets? Can this be confirmed by Soviet or German sources?

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact, and if the Soviets knew what Hartmann's aircraft looked like, this would suggest that Hartmann was the subject of, "special attention." That special attention may have involved specifically denying him credit in Soviet loss reports. We all know the power and the role that political officers and the NKVD played in the Soviet war effort, and that role included EXACTLY the kind of morale and counter propaganda campaign that would supersede the need to file accurate loss reports.

Given Hartmann's profile in Germany and the Eastern Front, Hartmann was almost certainly given "special attention" by somebody on the Soviet side.

On the other hand, Hartmann may have been ordered to over-claim as a part of a German/Luftwaffe propaganda effort. This is a distinct possibility as well.

One thing is certain:

Hartmann walked into Soviet captivity rather knowingly and more voluntarily than anyone else. He was given several opportunities to go to JV-44. He also disobeyed General Seidemann who ordered Hartmann and Graf to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by Soviet forces. Hartmann refused on multiple occasions to abandon his men who were not given the option to go west. (Not being critical, but others went West when given the same opportunity.)

Bronc

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Not sure about the 'special attention', but I think Hartmann himself did not affect the soviet loss records at all. the soviets very often mixed the Fw 190s and Bf 109s in the air (based on distance, poor visibility, etc.) so I do not think they saw any special markings if they missed even the plane. Especially, because Hartmann usually attacked from the back and disappeared quickly - that's why he had serious problems observing the ultimate fate of his attacked opponents. The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

So so simple for a NKVD/political officer to turn an air combat loss into another kind of loss. "Loss due to ground fire," is a well known method. Operational losses turn in to training losses from time to time, no?

The mere existence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD directorate makes any and all Soviet records suspect. And I'm including weather reports. A Soviet record reporting that the sun came up one morning is suspect on it's face given the historically documented propaganda power and influence of the Soviet commissar/political officer/NKVD.

Bronc

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

But then how could they verify most claims of certain, really honest pilots and 'select' and then change the losses linked to eg. Hartmann? I don't think they knew all the time where Hartmann was. Selective approval/change of the loss reports for some opponent pilots just doesn't seem to be realistic to me.
Gabor

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

I appreciate all of that, and agree. And this is why I think we need a team working on this, a working group of experts who can address all of these tangential issues.

It's pretty clear there is more to the Hartmann story, perhaps 10-percent of it has been told.

Is there a possibility that Hartmann's over claims were part of a Luftwaffe propaganda effort?

Bronc

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Usually anything relate to a "bounty" specially put on some ace's head is nothing but myth, and remember the air war of WWII was so large on scale that the achivement of individual aces, not matter how talent they were, would attract few attention from otherside, for example RAF pilots who fought in North Africa had no knowledge of Hans-Joachim Marseille in the war time, and RAF bomber command crews did not know anything about Helmut Lent or Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

While Soviets had a good radio intelligence service, and they knew lot on enemy aces and might well have picked up many of the Hartmann’s wingman’s confirmation messages, but does anyone believe that the commissars in 1940s believed that in one day Western researchers or as Soviets termed them in late 60s anf 70s "bourgeois history falsifiers" will be able to visit their archives? And that Soviets had interest to shift through their combat and loss records just in case to blacken Hartmann’s reputation 60-70 years later, but not that of e.g. Lipfert’s. One must remember that Hartmann was only 6th LW ace to achieve his 200th kill in early 1944, before that he probably wasn’t so special to Soviets before that. And Egorov’s article shows that Hartmann wasn’t especially accurate claimer even before his 200th kill.


Juha

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Yes, there could be a still unknown Luftwaffe propaganda-effort to keep up the fighting moral, by creating a 'Superhero', like: "Gott (und Hartmann) mit Uns" :-))) to which Hartmann has willingly/unwillingly assisted. If so, there is still a lot to discover. (I do not know this, I am just guessing...!) But it is very unlikely that the war propaganda machine has worked with full speed only on the soviet side and hasn't on the German side.

Gabor

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Hartmann religiously utilized a four-part method for engaging enemy aircraft: (1) Locate, (2) Decide (whether it was safe and prudent to attack), Attack (from behind with surprise), (4) Break away. As best as I can determine, Hartmann did not believe in dogfighting anything, or anyone, at any time, anywhere.

The hit and run, boom and zoom, break away approach to aerial combat maximizes your chances at survival, but it minimizes your time and opportunity to gain and verify a victory. Maybe Hartmann and his wingmen got into the habit of breaking away after the first squirt? The opposing aircraft nearly always went directionally downward after something like that...

---> Has anyone actually read any of Hartmann's reports or claims? What was he actually saying in them??

Wish we knew more...

Bronc

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

That is just a myth raised by Toliver/Constable, in fact. A piece of war propaganda, nothing more.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Returning to Khazanov article. Lazarev lost his life in midair collision with Pe-2 on March 1, 1945. Sytov possibly, but Trenkel's claim at 10.35 seems to be preferable.

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Hi Guys

Regarding that Hartmann was well regarded in the Bundesluftwaffe. He was known to be unpopular during WW2. I would assume it was because his overclaiming was suspected/known by his comrades, though there could be other reasons. All his claims seemed to be at altitude(thus lack of the most difficult and dangerous Sowiet aircraft to shout down, the Il-2), whereas all his comrades were involved in the more dangerous low-level/ground attack combat as per routine. Perhaps his comrades were jealous. Toliver/Constable by memory stated that Fritz Obleser had a problem with Hartmann's claims, this is just not true. Also not true is that Hartmann never lost a wingman.

Those that have been sited as overclaimers have a certain pattern to there claims, which Hartmann has i.e many days of heavy/huge numbers, but a few claimers like this were actually honest. Almost all the honest pilots made few daily claims, or just a few heavy ones.....like Helmut Lipfert.

Personally I think Hartmann was a lousy officer who's rank far outreached his leadership ability....perhaps another possible reason for being unpopular.

Are we sure we have all the Russian losses before actually matching-up/or not
Hartmann's claims?. I would say that a honest claimer should have two-thirds of his claims actually crash, the rest he thought had crashed. In fact would it not be his wingmans secondary job to see the crash and record it?

Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular, but not for his claiming.

I have noticed that the leaders of scoring at any particular time over Russia seem to be the overclaimers, it would appear they would do as much overclaiming as was necessary to he the leader I guess. Also having a usual wingman must be a must, unless the whole staffel was on the fiddle and had some kind of system. Saying this having studied many logbook pilots usually flew as a Rotte or Schwarm, rarely a whole Staffel.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
 

Johannes,

That is the whole key: we must have ALL confirmed soviet losses before we start the analysis. And that's exactly the case for Hungary! It is a relative small area, so perfect for the project. For certain months we could obtain ALL soviet losses from ALL soviet air units (5, 17 VA documents from TsAMO archives, Russia), fighting over Hungary (daytime) that time. This made the whole claim-scanning possible in which Hartmann failed biiiiiiiiiiig time, and Lipfert passed with A+. (Sorry to mention these two "typical" pilots all the time, but certainly there are many others with their +/- scores too on the scale.)

Gabor