205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

I am no expert on the subject , I am talking about 205th BG Italy which
used very sophisticated aerial cameras during mining of Danube
and during the bombing of oil storages Giurgiu at Iron Gate. Some of those
night shots were taken with some sort of night light magnifiers and
some with flashes and some were rather very clear, kind of early NVG cams.

The 150th Sqd at Cerignola was the one who took these shots .

I haven't seen any night shots of the SAAF 60th recon Sqd
period 1944 nor any of Ploesti or Bucharest taken at night by
the same groups.

At some point I even believe that RAF may have used more sophisticated
camera than 15th and 8th AF's .

Details will be appreciated

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Hello,

1/
No.205 Group RAF HQ. Foggia
No.330 Wing.(Amendola) No.150 Sqn RAF. (Wellingtons)
Date:2/3.6.1944
Target: Giurgiu (Danube)
A/C. Despatched: 44
MIA:1

2/
No.205 Group RAF HQ. Foggia.
No.236 Wing. (Foggia), No.104 Sqn. (Wellingtons)
Date:28/29.6.1944
Target: Giurgiu Oil Storage Plant.
A/C. Despatched: 105.
MIA: 5

Col.

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

As far as I know the RAF did not use night vision equipment on its cameras.

As well as the bombs the aircraft would drop a photoflash, which would trail behind the aircraft and explode at a pre-determined height above the ground. What you are seeing is the result of a 4.5 in photoflash exploding and illuminating the scene with a 200 million candle power flash lasting about 50 ms. The camera in the aircraft would cycle through a number of frames during the run and one or more would see ground detail when the flash went off.

The use of cameras in this way is why crew complained about having to fly straight and level for a time after the bombs had gone

Regards

Martin

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

The photograph you have attached shows the bomb aimer using the bombsight. Compare it to the similar photo on this link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_XIV_bomb_sight

If the photo was taken with a flash camera (not a flashbomb), the white blob is probably a reflection off something in the plane.

The photoflash bombs would probably have been carried in the bomb bay.

Here is an example of one type of photo flash bomb, I am not sure what would have been used in this case.
http://www.harringtonmuseum.org.uk/M46Photoflash.htm

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

The photoflash was 4.5 inches in diameter and was released downwards from the aircraft's flare chute automatically with the first bomb. It was pre-set on the ground to go off at 0.6 of the aircraft's intended bombing height - for an aircraft at 10,000ft it would go off at 6,000ft.

I suspect that the balloon object in the photo is a canvas screen placed around the nose turret to block out unwanted drafts and light. The nose guns were not normally used at night.

I know you don't want to be corrected but the RAF didn't (still doesn't) use 1 st, 2nd, 3rd etc suffixes for its units. Wouldn't want to be mistaken for a yank.


Regards

Martin

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Martin, is this the type of photoflash?

http://uxoinfo.com/blogcfc/client/in...fm?Ord_Id=FB80

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

I think it is, never having seen one up close. The weight is right and so are the operating principles

There are larger US models, which are better described as recce flares that were dropped from the bomb bay of the a/c and there are RAF hooded recce flares that descended on parachute but the ones on this site seem to fit the bill

Regards

Martin

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Martin, I found another description of a type called the M-23 ( also seen it labeled as M-23-A1), which is just a cardboard tube and must have weighed about 7 to 10 lbs. It sounds like it could be dropped out of a flare tube. It was primarily used at low altitude, so perhaps still not the right one.

https://books.google.com/books?id=aW...20tube&f=false

In the above link, discussing the cameras used, they had a type of electic eye that would fire the camera when the photoflash was detected.

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Martin

Thanks a lot for your updates also same to you Swank. Given they dropped the flare
(flash ) at 6'000 ft and pilot was required to fly on steady course for sometime to
allow recon shots completed these flares illuminated the skies for a quite a while making
the bombers an easy hunt for the Luftwaffe night fighters in Bucharest and
those based in Bulgaria . Were there any countermeasures or enemy avoidance
procedure in place at 205th GP once the flashes were dropped ?

Alex K

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Interesting but the method used in RAF night bombers was simpler.

The photoflash was dropped with the first bomb and because of its ballistic properties trailed behind the a/c further than the bombs did. Therefore if the aircraft was flying level the actual flash would not appear on the film, just the reflections from the ground. The photoflash was on a time fuse, which like everything, was subject to an error. Rule of thumb was +/- 3.5 seconds at 20,000ft.

Once the camera control was activated, approx 8 sec before the flash was due to go off two new frames were exposed and wound into the camera magazine taking 3 or 4 seconds and leaving frame 4 to capture the image from the photoflash with an 8 second exposure time. Two more frames were then wound through automatically, hopefully getting the image of the flash from the bomb bursts on frame 6. The sequence was then repeated to ensure that frame 6 was safely in the camera magazine. The exposure time allowed for the error in the timing of the fuse.

The 8 sec length of exposure of each of the wanted frames (4 and 6) is why we get the fire tracks and swirling lights on the image from flak and search lights and the aircraft moving about.

If you want to read more there is a chapter in "Bomber Intelligence" by WE Jones, he was an Intelligence Officer in 1 Group

Regards

Martin

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

These photoflash bombs only burned for 1/5 of a second or so. They were like a flash bulb. They were not used as target markers. Each was only used for taking a single night picture. They were dropped from 10,000 feet and exploded at a lower altitude.

The bombers stayed on course so they were "over" the target when the flash went off, which was "timed out" to be at the same time that the explosive bombs exploded on the target. I think they were essentially trying to get a single "Strike Attack Vertical" shot, but taken at night.

Here is the location showing the rather distinctive shape of the spit of land.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...99!4d25.970413

The oil tank targets were located a little to the NE, right along the river bank starting where the "spit" meets the main bank of the river. It looks like today it is just a long narrow field with a series of circular patterns on the ground where the oil storage tanks were.

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Interesting. The cameras used are identified here:



"In Britain, the small F24 (5x5 image) and the derivative but much larger F52 (8.5x7) aerial cameras dominated, the former being used mostly for night photography with the aid of flash bombs. Up to 40-inch lenses were fitted. These cameras had shutter-in-focal-plane, whereas U.S. cameras standardized on shutter-between-lenses, claiming this reduced distortion."





Ed

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Martin,Swank

Interesting mehods , was this method used by the 2nd SAAF Wing as
well ? Going into pure stats during the summer months of June and July
when the WX was suitable for such ops the 205th lost 13 bombers
mainly to Luftwaffe night fighters based in Bucharest and Bulgaria which
brings me to the conclussion that the use of such flare enabled the German
and Romanians to easely aquire and track their hunt .

Two things which I am still not clear on, is regarding the 60th SAAF recon
squadron which also flew some PR missions and yet did not use the method
probably due inability for the Mosquitos to carry such type of payload .I am
even not certain if the 15th AF on their very rare night B-24's and B-17 PR
missions ever used this British method. The night shot attached is this of
Toretta taken at night by the same group of rather very good quality.

Second attachment is a excellent recon night shot of a bridge in Craiova
Rom , by the 60th SAAF Sqd and relatively at lower alt prob 2000 ft aprox
at 23:30 hrs ,it gives the feeling was taken with modern nowadays NVG
recon cam which make me conclude they may have used similar systems.

Can anyone locate and overlap this Craiova bridge with google map ?

Cheers
Alex K

PS : Edwest ,thanks for your contribution

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

You're welcome, Alex.


The Mosquito was equipped with the photoflash bomb.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...IWM_C_4998.jpg





Ed

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Thanks Ed !!!

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Your 2nd Photo above is labeled Filiasi not Craiova. On the night of 7/8 May, two Wellingtons, each carrying one 4000 lb bomb tried to attack the RR bridge af Filiasi. One plane was shot down, this photo must be from the other plane. I think location is the older RR bridge here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/44...95!4d23.454995

I looks like today there are two adjacent RR bridges and a new highway bridge to the south.

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

You are definitely right my error is Filiasi and thanks for the Google stuff ,however Filiasi is very near to Craiova. On night of 7/8 May 44 5 x Wellingtons and one SAAF B-24 were lost out of which one over Yugoslavia on the leg back .Do you by chance know who was the crew of the downed aircraft and where exactly was it shot down, this because the crash sites on my data base are not in proximity of Filiasi . Also note the PR shot was taken rather low at about 2'000 ft . My data base shows that indeed 60th PR Sqd did not fly on that night to Romania therefore I had to rectify the shot's origin.

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Perhaps this book can offer additional insight. Interesting how name changes occurred.


http://www.amazon.com/Mosquito-Photo.../dp/1855328917


I do not own it, but use the Look Inside feature.



Best,
Ed

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Hi.
60 sqn SAAF did not operate at night.
Stefaan

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

Many thanks Ed, will buy the book it seems though that only
chapter 5 cover my research area .This Sqd did great PR
work on Aug 3,43 over the bombed Ploesti refinieries and once
again in Oct 1943 then again in 1944 with numerous flights
over Romania

BR
Alex K

Re: 205th BG 150 Sqd night shots
 

I did not say they operate at night maybe was a misunderstanding