Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

OK gents;

I'm now Officially Confused. Was this officer lost on 6/7 July 1944, or 6/7 August 1944?

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Hi Mark

I'd like to add to the confusion!! According to Obermaier's "Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945 Band 1" Bergmann failed to return from a mission over the Invasion front on the night of 6/7 August 1944. Chris Shores' "Aces High Volume 2" states that Bergmann was the victim of Flt Lt Edward Richard Hedgecoe and Flt Sgt JR Whitham of 85 Sqn on the night of 6/7 December 1944.

Sorry, not much help!
Cheers
Gordon

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Obermeier is right. According to the WASt-Verlustmeldung the Bf 110G-4 Wnr. 140320 3C+CS was lost 06-07.08.1944 in the area Mortain-Avranches. Aircraft did not return from a nightmission! Crew:
Hptm. Helmuth Bergmann, Fw. Günther Hauthal and Fw. Wilhelm Schopp all missing.

Junker

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Many thanks gents. Was hoping for WASt info as I couldn't find anything to support 6/7 July - must have been a mis-print or simple finger trouble.

Gordon - yes, on checking my data, I found I also had the additional entry for Hptm. Bergmann on 6/7 December, which I've duly removed.

For what it's worth, I had a conflicting entry for the same incident, which gave Hedgecoe / Whitham as possibly having shot down: "Bf 110 G-4 Wrk.Nr. 740078 G9+HZ of 12./NJG 1, which crashed north of Handorf, killing Staffelkapitaen Hauptmann Hans-Heinz Augenstein and radar operator Guenther Steins. Gunner Uffz. Kurt Schmidt baled out WIA." As Augenstein was also a Rittkreuztraeger, perhaps the confusion stems from there. Source was one of the Osprey Combat Aircraft books.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

ju55dk

Thank you for clarifying things, Hpt Helmut Bergmann is of great interest to me, he seems to have been quite a pilot. He shot 7 Lancasters down on 10/11 3 44, my father was the pilot of the 6th Lancaster he claimed that night. It seems Helmut Bergmann was celebrating his promotion earlier that day (10th April 44); thankfully my father managed to bail out and escaped capture, several of his crew wern't so lucky.

I would be very grateful if you could tell me more about Bergmann and the Luftwaffe base at Chenay France, I am unable to pinpoint it as there are several French places named "Chenay", I'm guessing it is just north east of Reims?
Is there any record of where Hpt Bergmann flew from on the night of 6/7 Aug 44? Do you know, was he still based at Chenay?

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

If Hptm Bergmann was not shot down by the 85 Squadron crew ( Hedgecoe ) on 6/7th December 1944, WHO claimed him and his crew on the night of 6/7th August? Flak? Or a RAF Mosquito?
Any information about who claimed this ace and his crew would be welcomed to this thread!
All the best for all and thanks for adding sharing new information ( at least for me! )
Adriano

Helmut Bergmann
 

Hello guys

Here is what I have been able to compile on this ace so far. I hope that you find it useful. Any corrections or additions will be very welcome.

http://rapidshare.com/files/233489858/Bergmann.zip.html

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Hi Mr. Etgen -

Please forgive me, but is that a "pay-per-view" site? In other words, anyone who might wish to see your file has to pay $54.00 or something? I've never seen a site like that before so I am a little confused.

Thanks.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Bergmann was shot down by John Surman of 604Sqn. I have written numerous articles on Bergmann if anyone wants to know more

Helmut Bergmann
 

Hello Larry

Rapidshare is a file sharing site where one can upload files so that others can then download them to their computer. You have to click on "Free User" under what appears to look like a clock and then on the next page the "Download" button. Unfortunately, Rapidshare only allows for a file to be downloaded 10 times before the link expires. If you are a Premium member then the files that you upload are never deleted and so on but you have to pay. You still should be able to download the file. Any corrections will be very helpful.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Hello Mr Etgen,
I've followed your instructions but the file won't open.

Thank you Chris. Oddly a search for more information here on this site hasn't produced any posts about Hpt Bergmann. I have read your excellent FlyPast article, but that's it so far. A pointer to where I might find more would help please.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

..yes if there's more on Bergmann I'd be interested too. The Flypast article is a good starting point. Don't recall the issue details offhand. Re the file, you'll need Winrar to open it as it's been zipped.....

Helmut Bergmann
 

Hello Paris7

The files are contained as a zip which means you will have to have downloaded a program such as WinZip or WinRar to then open them. However, if you have already read Mr. Gross's article I am sure you will not find much new with what I have written as it is basically what Obermaier has written with his victory list based on Foreman and Wood. As the original link has already expired I am uploading the file once more. Hopefully this time you will be able to open it. My apologies for the inconvenience.

http://rapidshare.com/files/233698659/Bergmann.zip.html

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Thanks very much for the explanation, Leo. I just went back to your link but 10 or more have already been there so your file is no longer available. But at least I had an opportunity to visit one of these file-sharing sites which was a new experience. My ISP, AOL, tried to develop a site like that not long ago but gave it up after just a year. I think maybe they couldn't make the profit they had hoped for.

Larry

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Thanks so much for your help Leo, I've downloaded your file and do have Winzip so I should be able to open this now.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Gentlemen: I have written 3 articles-one about Bergmann, one about his combats in Apr 43 and then his combats in Apr 44. I have all of his combat reports and a number of documents & photos all of which came from his brother (who is now dead and the family has sold off these items)

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

...and he took off from Juvincourt on 10 Apr 44

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Chris, the documents you speak of would they be awards documents?? If so would it be possible to get scans of them form you??

TIA

Nick

Volksbund File: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Zum Gedenken
R1070036
Nachname: Bergmann
Vorname: Helmut
Dienstgrad: Hauptmann
Geburtsdatum: 26.05.1920
Geburtsort: Bochum
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 07.08.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Mortain-Avranches


Helmut Bergmann ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Marigny (Frankreich) .
Endgrablage: Block 3 Reihe 31 Grab 1182

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Thank you Chris, that's helpful. I would be interested to know what documents and photographs you hold if that's possible?

Thank you FrankieS, so that's where Helmut Bergmann is. It's strange to think that I've often been near there. Vielen Dank.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

The only award documents I have copies of are his EK 1 & 2 and wound badge in black. I have copies of all his combat reports up to Kill 34 plus a number of photos mainly of his kills. I suggest you look at the articles in Flypast & Air Mail if you want to know more

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Thank you again Chris. I'd like to order a back number of your Air Mail article if possible, could you please let me know which issue it / they were in? I have a copy of the Fly Past article which is all excellent information.

Do you have a record of his involvement in during the night of 30th March 1944? I also wonder where he was based from 11th April to his own young death over the route of the Cherbourg peninsular. One last question if I may, are there any records of him having visited the Monthlary Luftwaffe base during that period?

I would very much appreciate any help you might be able to give me with this. I can't help feeling that despite their polar differences from an ideological point of view, My Father, (Flying instructor Fl Ltn Neil Nimmo 101 Sqn Lancaster Q # 6 that Hpt Bergmann shot down on 10/ 11 April 1944), would (at a later stage), have admired Helmut Bergmann's undoubted skills as a fighter pilot.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

I am afraid that I cannot remember when these articles were published and my copies are in the attic! You can contact 'Air Mail' at editor@rafatrad.co.uk I am afraid I do not have his Flugbuch so cannot say if he visited various airfields or if he was flying 30 Mar 44. It would appear that III/NJG 4 was still at Juvincourt but if it was from there he took off on his last mission, I cannot say for certain

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Merci Chris, I'll contact "Air Mail" as you suggest. And thank you again for your help with this. I find that life is increasingly 'in the Attic' these days!

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

I have your Airmail article Chris, it's a good read. can I ask? What more were you able to find out about Helmut Bergmann from his brother? He clearly kept meticulous records and liked to mark his kills with a photograph or two. As I understand it you now hold a copy of those records and of a number of photographs of Helmut Bergmann, was there any indication that he had been a Nazi party supporter do you know?

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

The brother, now passed away, did not say anything else and I thought it not polite to push further

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Thank you Chris, so far I've seen no evidence that he was a member of the party.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

How things change! Having put my researcher's hat on the result is now there, so thank you all very much for your help and leads. I only point to this review as the book is exactly what this original thread was all about. I'd hate to be accused of advertising so borrow it if you like but don't buy it on the back of this post!

http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/bo...perilous-moon/

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Out of interest, how did you come by the additional Bergmann information? I still maintain that Johnnie Surman got him- I seem to remember that there was misidentification in the other combat with resulted in the loss of the other 604 Mossie that night.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Uph! I've just typed you a long reply Chris, but when I clicked preview I was told to login again, needless to say, what I'd written was promptly lost. Rather than retype it all I suggest that the best thing would be to borrow a copy of the book, or browse it at WHSmith, Waterstones or Foyles as all the info you ask for is there, and you and others who have given me useful pointers feature on my thank you page.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

More details at www.Perilous-Moon.com

Chris, I don't discount the strong possibility that John Surman shot Bergmann down, just that on doing more research I was to find that there was another strong possibility that needed to be marked.
John Surman would not have known exactly who he had shot down, despite Paul Carell (not very reliable) claiming that no Luftwaffe Bf110 aircraft, arrived, we know that at least two did and that both were lost. I feel sure that John Surman shot down one of them.

Re: Hptm. Helmut Bergmann
 

Late to the party - someone mentioned WNr. 740078 in this thread -

Bf 110G-4, 740078, Rohrbach, Ltn. Erich, , III., 7., NJG 5, , C9+GR, , , 02-Dec-43, KIA due to Luftkampf. Bf & Bs FSA, OK., 2/3-Dec, 'G9+GR' per Balss., Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Nachtjagd, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.24; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, p.170; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, II, p.270; Höhler, Deutsche Nachtjagd Personalverluste, p.121, , Zepernick nördlich Berlin, 100%, F, Bs Ogefr. Ernst Hoch, , Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG at Gotha in Oct-43