Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Looking for complete details of JU88 1/KG51 flown by Lt Rudolf Ortner lost on 3.5.41 off Suda Bay, Crete. And any details of another a/c same unit ,
destroyed 4.5.41 Krumova.

Any help most appreciated.
Best regards,
Steve.

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

8184 Ju 88 9K+GH I/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4)
OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location 03.05.1941 (F Lt. Rudolf Ortner, BF Uffz. Werner Mannert, BS Uffz. Johann Grabner and BM Fw. Walter Weigel missing)

2261 Ju 88 I/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4)
OPS (F) damaged by enemy fire and crash landed (80%) at Krumovo 04.05.1941

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Brilliant,
Many thanks John and Ed.
Thats very useful.

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Hi Steve

Referring to my 1987 co-authored 'Air war for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete', on 3 May 1941 during a raid on Suda Bay by an estimated 24 Ju88s from I/KG51 and L/LG1, 1/KG51 lost two aircraft (9K+GH flown by Ltn Rudolf Ortner into the sea off Suda Bay and 9K+LH Fw Georg Fanderl that crashed on the island). My books says that Ortner at least was rescued, but it now seems that this may not have been the case. Two Ju88s were claimed by Hurricane pilot Sgt George Genders (V7800), who also claimed two damaged, while Flg Off E.J. Woods claimed one, Flg Off David Moir claimed a probable and Flg Off Ping Newton two damaged. The guns around Suda Bay also claimed two destroyed but these were probably the same aircraft that fell to the Hurricanes.

Next day (4 May), 16 Ju88s repeated the raid on Suda Bay, one from I/KG51 being badly damaged and crashed at Krumovo on return, while one from I/LG1 landed at Eleusis on one engine. Lt Rupert Brabner in a Fulmar of 805 Squadron claimed one shot down, while Hurricane pilots Flg Newton claimed a probable, and Flg Off Woods and Flg Off George Noel-Johnson claimed two damaged. The guns also claimed two damaged.

IIRC, Lt Brabner MP later became Under-Secretary of State for Air and was killed in a plane crash in 1945. George Genders DFM became a test pilot postwar and was killed testing the DH108 tailless jet. And by way of coincidence, I met George Noel-Johnson's son a few years ago when he was piloting a passenger jet from Morooco to England on which Val and I were passengers. I recognised the unusual surname - and was invited to the cockpit for a chat!

Hope this helps

Brian

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Good morning Brian,
Many many thanks for your detailed overview on the claims and losses
during these days, during this campaign.
This as been most helpful.
Can you tell me whether we can expect similar work from you on other campaigns?

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Hello Gentlemen;

Please do not take it as fact that this pilot might not have survived; It is quite possible that an amendment is lurking somewhere in Luftwaffe loss documents as I still have not had time to double check all of those 15.000 pages; there are still many errors in those 1941 pages <unexplained ´double losses´ of ´the same´ numbers etc.> and also many name amendments are probably missing etc.

Just in case there might be a revision of abowe books...

643 Ju 88 A-5 [GE+YG] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 A-5 2.(F)/123 (Fliegerkorps X)
OPS (F) dam in combat with <enemy> fighters (10-59%) at Cap-Passero 08.05.1941 (B Uffz. Conrad Heyde and BS Uffz. Karl Holste inj)
[not mentioned in book Shores, Cull and Malizia: ´Malta, the Hurricane years´ P.200/201 ~ but HMS ARK ROYAL had lunched many of its RN/FAA Fulmar fighters of 807 and 808 SQ as interceptors to incoming raids by enemy aircraft (SM.79, Bf 110 and Ju 87´s) - This was when Royal Navy ´Force H´ was escorting the TIGER convoy to Malta ...]
- Ju 88 A-5 4U+GK 2.(F)/123 (Luftflotte 3)
Non-OPS (H) crash landed (15%) at Würzburg Airfield 18.06.1941
- Ju 88 A-5/trop 4U+GK 2.(F)/123 (Luftflotte 2
South) OPS (F) unk causes (100) <amd: hit by AA fire and crashed (100% <amd 40%) unk location (Derna) 01.12.1941 (F Oblt. Hans Ramming, B Fw. Hans Schulze and Ofw. Herbert Huster mis/rep ret uninjured in b/11.12.41) (dam 100% amd to 40% in b/11.12.41) (rep as Ju 88 A5 “Trop” 634 4U+GK in losses 41v05.12.41) [likely error for number 643 as other <A5> 0634 rep lost before with KG 30]

Best regards
ed

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Hello Gentlemen;

Please do not take it as fact that this pilot might not have survived; It is quite possible that an amendment is lurking somewhere in Luftwaffe loss documents as I still have not had time to double check all of those 15.000 pages; there are still many errors in those 1941 pages <unexplained ´double losses´ of ´the same´ numbers etc.> and also many name amendments are probably missing etc.

Just in case there might be a revision of abowe books...

643 Ju 88 A-5 [GE+YG] Luftwaffe
- Ju 88 A-5 2.(F)/123 (Fliegerkorps X)
OPS (F) dam in combat with <enemy> fighters (10-59%) at Cap-Passero 08.05.1941 (B Uffz. Conrad Heyde and BS Uffz. Karl Holste inj)
[not mentioned in book Shores, Cull and Malizia: ´Malta, the Hurricane years´ P.200/201 ~ but HMS ARK ROYAL had lunched many of its RN/FAA Fulmar fighters of 807 and 808 SQ as interceptors to incoming raids by enemy aircraft (SM.79, Bf 110 and Ju 87´s) - This was when Royal Navy ´Force H´ was escorting the TIGER convoy to Malta ...]
- Ju 88 A-5 4U+GK 2.(F)/123 (Luftflotte 3)
Non-OPS (H) crash landed (15%) at Würzburg Airfield 18.06.1941
- Ju 88 A-5/trop 4U+GK 2.(F)/123 (Luftflotte 2
South) OPS (F) unk causes (100) <amd: hit by AA fire and crashed (100% <amd 40%) unk location (Derna) 01.12.1941 (F Oblt. Hans Ramming, B Fw. Hans Schulze and Ofw. Herbert Huster mis/rep ret uninjured in b/11.12.41) (dam 100% amd to 40% in b/11.12.41) (rep as Ju 88 A5 “Trop” 634 4U+GK in losses 41v05.12.41) [likely error for number 643 as other <A5> 0634 rep lost before with KG 30]

Best regards
ed

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Dear Mr.
I am interested in obtaining some type of information on soldiers died in the Airport of Krumovo-Plovdiv (Bulgaria), during the stay of airplanes of the Luftwaffe, in the period of time from the 1-03-1941 and 30-5-1941.
During this period two fatal accidents took place, the 20-04-1941, and the 4-5-1941, in both cases with JU88s airplanes.
Them attached connections of some pages with additional information.
In case they need some other information, I am to its disposition.
Thank you very much
Jon
-------------------------------
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/bulg...ermany-ww2.htm
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/bulg...lgaf-bases.htm
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_pattle.htm
http://user.bahnhof.se/~surfcity/com...lth_woods2.htm

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Ed
May I just draw your attention to Shores, Cull and Malizia's book Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, page 317, where the action against the Ju 88A-5 WNr 643 of 2.(F)/123 quite correctly is mentioned.
You simply look in the wrong book....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Thanks Stig;

Just did not check that book when wrote the comment above, sorry. Just found it strange it was not included. Apologies to Brian and others.

ed

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Thank you very much Stig.
Thank you very much Ed.
I request excuses to You by my poor language.
I have not had occasion to find that book “Air for War Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete”.
In any case I look for a very concrete information.
I am going to try to explain it best the possible thing.
.- Name, Last names, of the pilots, soldiers, died in Krumovo-Plovdiv, during the stay of the Luftwaffe in Bulgaria.
Excuses again, I am inexperienced.
Greetings

Jon

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Hi, I have possible 30% on one Ju 88 for that other date, no casualties mentioned, they could lurk somewhere or misdated. Anyway are you shure there were injuries?

ed

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

Hi, please I would like confirmation/correction for these 2 points:

• 1./KG51 lost 2 Ju88 on that fateful day. Therefore, according to the Flugbuch of one of the lost airmen: Fw.Weigel Walter, Bm – one of the bomber (his Ju88) was coded 9K+DH, not 9K+GH : is a mistake ? An error?
• Some RAF pilots claimed these Luftwaffe bombers : Hurricane pilot Sgt George Genders, Flg Off E.J. Woods, Flg Off David Moir and Flg Off Ping Newton : what was their unit ?

Thank you
Phil.

Re: Loss record for Junkers 88 3.5.41
 

8184 Ju 88 (A-5) 9K+GH I/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4)
OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location 03.05.1941 (F Lt. Rudolf Ortner, BF Uffz. Werner Mannert, BS Uffz. Johann Grabner and BM Fw. Walter Weigel missing)

I suppose this be "9K+DH" then. Errors like these are known, but who´s error?
We need third referance to be shure, or if there is W.Nr./code availble (I think less than a week or ten days before, to be fairly shure). I added sub-versions on both, as losses do not state these. The other was ...

6327 Ju 88 (A-5) 9K+LH I/KG 51 (Luftflotte 4)
OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location 03.05.1941 (B Hptm. Illgner killed, F Fw. Fanderl and BF Fw. Schreiber injured, Uffz. Conze killed)