|
Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning gentlemen,
which of Stanislaw Skalski's Hurricane kills were shared kills ? If none, were his Mustang kills shared kills ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Skalski claimed two Me 109 together with two other pilots (2/3 victory) on 8 November 1940 in 501 Sqn.
Greg |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
That's odd. There's no mention of these victories in any of my sources. 501 make two claims on that day but Skalski does not figure in either. I have his shared kills coming in Poland in 1939.
regards Keith |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
His two Mustang kills are also very doubtful as I believe they crashed while being chased which seems odd.
regards Keith |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Quote:
this is of help, thanks a lot. Skalski's breakdown oughta look like this now: P.11 6,25 [6+1] kills (after postwar upgrade of two kills) Hurricane 4,67 [4+2] kills (I suppose he still flew the Hurricane in November) Spitfire 8 kills Mustang 2 kills (collided). Can you explain the well-known scoreboard photo with the 17 rimmed iron crosses and the 4 non-rimmed iron crosses to me ? (s. Wikipedia entry) All the best to you, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hi Michael
My good friend Franek Grabowski (and a member of our Forum) has written a book about Skalski that will be published very soon by Fonthill. Suggest you check Amazon etc. Best Brian |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hi,
there is an official list of Skalski's victories Day Unit Place Aircraft Victory 1939.09.02 142 Escadrille Unisław Do 17 1-0-0 1939.09.02 142 Escadrille Unisław Do 17 1-0-0 1939.09.03 142 Escadrille Dubielno – Kornatowo – Lisewo Hs 126 1/4-0-0 1939.09.03 142 Escadrille Komorowo Hs 126 1-0-0 1939.09.04 142 Escadrille Inowrocław Ju 87 1-0-0 1939.09.04 142 Escadrille Solec Do 17 0-0-1/3 1940.08.30 501 SQN E of Dungeness He 111 1-0-0 1940.08.30 501 SQN Southend He 111 0-0-1 1940.08.31 501 SQN Rochester Me 109 1-0-0 1940.09.01 501 SQN RoyalTunbridge Wells Me 110 0-0-1 1940.09.02 501 SQN Newchurch Me 109 1-0-0 1940.09.02 501 SQN SE of Hythe Me 109 1-0-0 1940.11.08 501 SQN Sevenoaks Me 109 1/3-0-0 1940.11.08 501 SQN Sevenoaks Me 109 1/3-0-0 1941.07.24 306 SQN W of Gravelines Me 109 1-0-0 1941.08.19 306 SQN S of Gravelines Me 109 1-0-0 1941.08.21 306 SQN S of St Omer Me 109 0-1-0 1941.09.17 306 SQN Lens Me 109 1-0-0 1941.09.17 306 SQN SE of Dunkerque Me 109 1-0-0 1942.04.10 316 SQN N of Boulogne Fw 190 1-0-0 1942.04.25 316 SQN W of Le Havre Me 109 0-0-1 1942.05.03 316 SQN SE of od Calais Fw 190 0-1-0 1943.03.28 145 SQN Sfax Ju 88 1-0-0 1943.04.02 145 SQN N of El-Hamma Me 109 1-0-0 1943.04.04 145 SQN N of Gabes Me 109 1-0-0 1943.05.06 145 SQN S of od Tunis Me 109 0-0-1 1944.06.24 133 Wing Dreux Me 109 1-0-0 1944.06.24 133 Wing Dreux Me 109 1-0-0 BTW - the biography of Stanislaw Skalski was published in Poland last year (Generał pilot Stanisław Skalski. Portret ze światłocieniem. Authors: Grzegorz Sojda & Grzegorz Śliżewski). All the Best Greg |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello Greg,
thanks a lot for your list. In this book https://www.amazon.de/Entscheidende-...luftschlachten Christopher Shores reports, that two of Skalski's 1939 probable victories were upgraded postwar, thus giving him a PZL P.11 score of 6,25 confirmed destroyed. What's your opinion about this ? I wish you a good start into a successful new week, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
I still don't see where the shared victories come from on 8 November. In "Poles in Defence of Britian" Robert Gretzyngier states Skalski "claimed the destruction of a Bf109 with others", and in Kenneth Wynns excellent Men of the Battle of Britain he also lists a shared claim but neither indicate there were two shared victories. In John Foremans RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims pt.1 501 Squadron do make claims for two Bf109s destroyed and another damaged (the kills are credited to FL Jones and PO MacKenzie). In his more detailed work "Battle of Britain: the forgotten months" he attributed the same pilots quoting the combat reports, although Jones' claim seems very doubtful. Gretzyngier cites Wynn's work in his bibliography (as well as Foremans) so there is some element of cross-fertilisation. I note also there's no mention of who Skalski shared these victories with. Chris Shores doesn't include them in AH either so....my take is that Skalski may have claimed a victory but that it was attributed to another pilot, whether he awarded himself a share or not. Possibly mirroring some of the claims put forward by him in Poland in 1939 and confirmed (how?) post-war. Maybe he fired at both the Bf109s destroyed but....Kenneth MacKenzie was definitely awarded a full victory and evidence would support Jones also.
regards Keith |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello there Brian,
hope you're doing fine. Could you convince your friend to tell us his opinion about Skalski's total and Keith's intresting considerations ? Have a very good weekend, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Gentlemen,
Mr Grabowski has published this marvellous Skalski biography https://www.amazon.de/Skalski-Agains...5&sr=8-1-fkmr0 which can be considered definite. Sadly, he smashes my hopes of finding confirmation for Christopher Shores's proposition that 2 of Skalski's probable claims during the Polish campaign were upgraded to confirmed kills postwar. I wonder what the motivation of Mr Shores was. Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Its a good piece of work and long overdue but I wished it had been a bit heavier on detail of his relationships with other pilots. I expect there are few remaining survivors of the time who could have contributed any opinions on the man.
The claims in Poland are so confused that it's a question of where you stand on the individual as to how they are interpreted. Skalski seems to be unquestionably the highest scoring Polish ace of the war although my own take is that Horbaczewski runs him very close. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
[quote=Skalski seems to be unquestionably the highest scoring Polish ace of the war although my own take is that Horbaczewski runs him very close.[/QUOTE]
I have Skalski, Urbanowicz, Gladych, Horbaczewski with 18.25, 18, 17 and 16.83 respectively, all based on Shores' work. Has there been any update on the latter 3 scores? For Skalski, Shores states in AH2 that the revised total is 18+3sh, but only details 1sh in 1939. No mention of any on 8 Nov 1940. Perhaps this is an error and they were supposed to be included in the list to make up the 18+3? As for where they might have come from ....... Peter |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
I believe that Horbaczewski shaves it because his claims in 1944 all seem to be confirmable (even those on his last flight). Certainly within the criteria that for every 3 claimed at least one or two were genuine. As I alluded to earlier it'll be interesting what the Shores book states about his victories with 43 Squadron. It all revolves around the victories with the PFT and 43 Squadron. His claim accuracy does seem above average.
Skaski's and Urbanowicz's victories in 1940 have to be considered within the context of the Battle of Britain when overclaiming was very high, especially within 303 Squadron (a consequence of their aggessive attacking at close range and a form of "tunnel vision" when confronted by a Swastika with wings. The victories in 1941 and 1942 of Skalski and Horbaczewski were very loosely verified. Urbanowicz's in China are difficult to verify because of the paucity of Japanese records. What I would say is that all three had above average skill and aggression and even within the hyperbole offered by fighter pilots in general, they stand out as determined and brave "scrappers". - by the way before I get lambasted for anti-Polish bias I should state that my wife is from piekary śląskie and my children are half Polish...and my University dissertation was on "Poland in the Silver Age" .... a roller-coaster of emotion with nasty rumours of Catherine the Great thrown in for good measure :) regards Keith |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Horbaczewski was getting very close to Skalski's tally in 1944. Skalski's victory markings on his Mustang an indication that he had just 17 kills by 1944 - none shared (and four probables). At the same time Horbaczewski had was not far behind with 12 kills. Nothing I have read about Skalski (or any other fighter pilot) indicates a modest approach to claiming, usually these are made by biographers. In which case Horbaczewski was officially just one half of a kill behind when he died - although arguably he had thirteen and a half kills because he never wrote a combat report after his last flight.
Parallels between Bishop and Mannock in WW1 spring to mind. regards Keith |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
1 Attachment(s)
Regarding Skalski, the date the photo was taken is important -
AH2 lists a total of 18.25, the list given earlier in this thread 17.92, and that at this site http://www.aviationart.pl/signatures/92.html is also 17.92. I guess one may have come from the other. The difference between them and AH2 is they add 2sh on 8 Nov 1940 and exclude 1 on 4 Apr 1943. I have a photo of Skalski's Mustang III with 17 kill markings, date unknown, attached. Based on a total of 17.92, the likely possibility which gives 17 kills at the time he was in a Mustang is if the photo was taken after 24 June 1944, when he had 17 + 3sh, and he didn't show shared kills. If he did show shared kills, then ....... it doesn't add up unless he only had 2sh and the photo was taken before his kills of 24 June 1944 were added. ALTERNATIVELY, if AH2 total of 18+1sh is correct, it comes out neatly at 17 including shared kills if the photo was taken before 24 June 1944. Is there more information to dispute these totals? So when was the photo taken?? Horbaczewski's photo was probably taken after 12 June but before 30 July 1944, during which time he had 12 kills. But kill marking #9 looks different - artist's 'error', photo quality??? Either way, as far as I can see on the available information, his total can only reach 16.5. Finally, is there any more information on the Urbanowicz and Gladych totals other than AH2? Check out the others at the website given above. Peter |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
1 Attachment(s)
Oops, Hobaczewski's photo .......
|
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
1 Attachment(s)
Oops again - a later pic of Horbaczewski's Mustang, presumably between 30 July and 18 August.
|
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Peter,
"Entscheidende Luftschlachten des 2. Weltkriegs" in which Christopher Shores proposed a postwar upgrade of two of Skalski's probable Polish campaign kills to confirmed kills was published earlier (1988) than "ACES HIGH Vol2" (1999) from which you refer to a Skalski total of 18,25. That means that even Shores himself ceased suggesting that upgrade. I'll say goodbye to a PZL P.11 score of 6,25 for Skalski. :-( Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Quote:
For English readers, see: Duel For The Sky:Ten Crucial Air Battles of World War II Vividly Recreated. Shores,Christopher New York: Doubleday & Co.,1985 pp.13-28 (Blitzkrieg on Poland - September 1939 [Sklaski item p.26]). Col. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Michael, AH2 score adjustments from AH1 are somewhat confusing.
AH1 has him with a score of 21-24, depending on whether you accept his 3 claims of 5 Sep 1940 for which he never filed a combat report. Apparently JH Lacey was going to do the report for him, but never did. So without any further comment, AH2 simply ignores these 3 claims. AH2 also deletes 1 kill on 1/9/39 and reduces one of the claims on 3/9/40 to a 1/4 share. So 24-3-1-0.75=19.25=19+1 BUT in the summary of claims AH2 states the score was 18+3sh !!! How he arrived at that, I don't know. The possibilities are - 1 the 2sh on 8/11/40 mentioned earlier in this thread are somehow connected and he included them in the total but omitted to update the details, and 2 a claim on 21/8/41 still included in AH2 but recorded as a damaged only in the other 2 lists was also discarded to make 18+3, but the change again not recorded in the details. Whatever the answer, I can't make Shores' lists and totals equate with the info as it is given. Also, I think I made a mistake adding the claims from the list given earlier in this thread - on re-checking I think it adds up to 18.92. Sorry if it sounds confusing. Have sent you a spreadsheet setting it out. Peter |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Peter,
yes, sometimes the info given in ACES HIGH is confusing. See also http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45616 Is there any chance to contact Mr Shores ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Guys, all your questions concerning Skalski's score shall be answered by the book.
Keith, if I could find any accounts portraying Skalski as a man, I would include them. It was already too late, when I started my research, and by now all the people who could tell anything about him personally are gone. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Franek & Co,
yes, ironically Skalski died just when Slizewski and Cony published their Skalski biography in AVIONS. :-( What is your general opinion about the Lista Bajana ? http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/lista.bajana.pdf Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
The research just came too late, thanks to communists. Skalski had to be interviewed in 1960s or 1970s, as well as the other airmen, but this was not possible.
The Bajan List is an official score, and there is no other such list. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Franek,
do you have the impression that pilots who served with the Soviet Union had a better postwar life ? http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...oland-lwp.html Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Well, it depends on what do you mean by better life. Most of those on the list were Soviets, and returned to the SU, in plenty of cases much to their disappointment. Some, not those from the list, deserted, and escaped to the west. In general they were in a better position, as with few exceptions, they were not persecuted.
|
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello Franek,
in the former German Democratic Republic where I come from we were ordered to like the Russians, whom we were not allowed to call 'Russians' but 'Soviet citizen'. Was is the same in former Poland ? Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
I cannot say if there were official orders or if it went inofficially but there was a strong propaganda action taken, and new language introduced. Soviet Union was replaced by a literary translation, Union of Councils, etc. Numerous events on friendship and gratitude were held, and there are still some people who would like to continue the 'tradition'.
It seems it would not help much, as counterintelligence files are full of notes on 'negative approach'. A lot of effort was put to brainwash the people. In regard of war period, plenty of Soviets did not like the idea of becoming temporary Poles, and opposed it. The term Soviet seems appropriate indeed, as there were representatives of many nations, I recall one Estonian commander being liked by his Polish subordinates, because 'he also hated Ruskies'. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Quote:
what do you mean by 'most of those on the list were Soviets' ? I wish you a good start into a pleasant July, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Of the list only Chromy, Czownicki, Konieczny, Szuberski, and Szwarc were Polish citizens, the rest being Soviets. There were not much more Polish citizens in the 'Polish People's Air Force'.
Have a nice night & day! |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
So they had not enough real Polish pilots for their Polish units and had to complete them with Soviet citizen ?
Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
I would say the opposite. Apart of two units, namely 1 PLM and 2 PLNB, the rest were Soviet units, transferred to PPAF and renumbered.
The original two units had some Polish citizens, but I am not sure if there was a handful of pre-war Polish pilots amongst them. Practically all command positions were held by Soviets, except two trusted men. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello Franek,
I'm intrigued that Josef Frantisek is on the Lista Bajana. He is Czech, isn't he ? Cheers, Michaed |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Because he served in the Polish Air Force, and was on Polish payroll. A number of foreigners joined Polish Air Force, plenty of Czechoslovaks, several Americans of both Polish origin and not, Latin Americans, few Estonians, etc.
Please note, that Gładych's score on the list does not include some victories - it is becuase he was not in the Polish Air Force, when he scored them. As he was not in the USAAF, it would make him civilian I think. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Quote:
can you tell me if the Skalski kill list that Greg posted is from the Sojda/Śliżewski book he mentioned ? Or: Are you even Grzegorz Sojda or Grzegorz Śliżewski, Greg ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Greg is out for a week or two.
As to the list, a better one is in my book, it includes victories not claimed and downgraded. The victory on 8 November 1940 was for one shared and not two. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Good morning Franek,
you're right. I was wondering if Greg S. is Greg Śliżewski because the latter wrote an article for AVIONS which lists two shared Hurricane kills less and one Spitre kill more than indicated in the list that Greg S. posted in post 7. Have a nice weekend, Michael |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello All.
It's a long time I follow this thread About Skalski. I didn't want to answer for many reasons, maybe you will understand I had the honour to meet Stanislaw Skalski in Warsaw the 5th september 2000. My guide was now my friend Franek. a long friendship. After I did my article about Skalski in REPLIC in 3 parts in n°113, 114 and 115 of Jan, feb and march 2001. When I saw the article in Avions n° 141 (dec 2004) I was vey upset and annoyed because some photos and some infos came directly from my article without asking a permission. I was sure because for these 2 photos I took directly during my visit to "Skal" . Impossible to find these two photos outside of the collection of the great Ace In my revue AceS in issue number 2 (Feb 2017) I did a new version of the bio of Skalski with the help of Franek with some photographs ( his book is fantastic !). For the victories of the 8 nov 1940, I found at the PI&SM a long time ago a paper in the Skalski files about these 2 victories of 8 nov 1940. I have a xray copy of this paper some where. It was written that 2 Bf 109 shared were claimed by 3 pilots of 501 Sqn, among them S. Skalki, on 8th november The story is like that In the morning of 8th november a patrol of 501 Sqn A flight composed if I Remember well with P/O Skalski (V6723/SD°B) F/S Whitehouse (V7469/K) and F/L Jones (????) see a pair of Bf 109; they attack them but themself were attacked by outnumbered of Bf 109. They flew away Even the 3 pilots of RAF have seen some impacts they didn't claim these victories. The same day, in the same place the unit of the Royal Observer Corps have seen the combat and found the wrecks of 2 Bf 109. The only, really only, pilots in the air at this precise moment were the pilots of 501 Sqn. The claim was official in the middle december 40 One of the 2 photos I took at Skalki's house show the 3 pilots with the rudder of one of the 2 Bf 109 shot down on 8th november 1940. This photo was with a bad quality that why I didn't put in my last article in AceS Thank you. Ps. Sorry for my bad English. |
Re: Stanislaw, Skalski
Hello Many.
Thank you for the detailed information regarding Skalski's 2 shared kills of 8 Nov 1940. Peter |
| All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:58. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net