P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Hello,

There is one case of unidentified American airmen buried in Yugoslavia which is quite puzzling.

Plane crashed near Drvar, in Bosnia, Yugoslavia, on about September 21st 1944. (since date is given by witnesses, it could be off by as much as two months!).

Remains are partial and identification was impossible.
However, aircraft was identified as P-38, and serial were visible.

Engine plate: V 1710-91 A-047489
(as I was told it could be from P-38J)

Machine guns:
1190815
1190382
1294465
120206 (judging by number, this could be from 20mm gun)

It seems that it could be easily identified in MACR - except that there is nothing similar in MACRs.

My thoughts:
Could it be from some other allied airplane? I know french used P-38 in MTO.
Were there other users of P-38?
Did they have planes missing on September 1944?

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

This appears to be the IDPF file for this loss.

http://www.7tharmddiv.org/docrep/ima...GRADE/X-55.pdf

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Yes it is.
I think I gave all relevant data here, so there was no need to put link to entire file.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

On the contrary, the IDPF file has possible MACRS, which were not provided in the information you provided.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

As I stated, those MACRs, as well as many others, were checked.
There is a list of M2 serials from MACRs (though not complete), and serials are not in it.

In some P-38 MACRs MG serials are not listed, but there are engine serials, and again they are not match.

This is why I think there is possibility that this plane was not American.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

There is also the clue of the 10K gold ring. The "Patent" wording and number inside "205466" would seem to make it an American (or English) ring, not French. I think it was possibly a birthstone ring with the birthstone missing. If it were some sort of class ring, there would be more lettering on the ring.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

The problem also lies in the fact that some combat losses were not reported on a MACR, for some reason or another. The French only flew reconnaissance P-38s.

I'm also pretty sure the a/c is American and a P-38 based on (1) gun s/n and (2) Allison engine.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Yes, the missing MACRs are a problem. For example, I can not find a MACR for 1st Lt Fay R Valley, 1st FG, lost in Yugoslavia. The exact date of loss is also unclear. Perhaps someone has that info?

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Found a M2 with ASN 1294465 listed in MACR 8271 (43-28663 lost near Belgrade on 2 September 1944), but the other serials don't match and the pilot of this P-38 evaded.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I have found some 450 american airmen (mainly bomber crews) in Yugoslavia for whom MACR was not made. They were evacuated quickly with partisan help, and entire crew was well.
But in this case MACR should be made, since airmen was missing.

In few cases, MACR is not available on Fold3.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Close, but it is 1294655 not 1294465.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Kaki,

were there other users of P-38?

Also, is it possible that someone flew from Britain or even Soviet held territory?

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Sorry for the typo in my post. 1294655 is mentioned in MACR 8271.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Rainer,
it is not typo in your post, those serial numbers are different.
These cases are not related at all.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

There is MACR 7192 for Lt Micheli, 1st FG P-38 44-23147. He was last seen over the Adriatic. July 13, 1944. He is still MIA, but what is of interest are the various serial numbers on his plane.

Engines were: A-047741 and A-047203.
Guns were: 120594 for the 20 mm.
50 Cals were: 1190385, 1190428, 1190821, and 734993

Note for our Unknown, the engine serial number A-047489 is right between the two above.
The 20mm is not real "close" at 120206 but seems to be in the same range.
The 50 Cal from our Unknown were: 1190382, 1190815, 1294465. Two of them are very close to Micheli's.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

That is great find, RSwank.
Since in both cases it was new plane, it seems that original engines and MGs were installed.

That could mean that missing plane should have serial number very close to 44-23147.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

That is what I am thinking. Here is Joe Baughers page for these:

http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-b...23147&content=

I started checking numbers on some of the other losses in that range. The 1190xxx pattern is clear in many of them. Also the engine serial numbers of form A-047xxx becomes apparent.

Note that Joe has many gaps in this list. I suspect our plane is "in the gaps".

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I received info that Lt Fay Robert Valley was lost April 6, 1944. MACR was 3700 for 42-67070. The MACR is not on fold3.com, so I can't check any serial numbers.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I don't think it is his plane, unknown allegedly crashed in September.
I have seen mistake by 2 monhts, but 5 is too much, it is different season.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Also, if the serial number for Valley is correct, it is not in the group of serial numbers we suspect contains the plane.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

MACR 3700 for Valley.

Engines are V-1710-91 & 89, serials 42-94(?)257 & 42-30275.

Machine guns are .50 cal Browning M-2, Upper Left 376824, LL 376784, UR 376623, LR 41094(?)6.
Cannon is Hispano M-1 20 mm 118673

The entire MACR block 3692 to 3717 is/was missing from Fold3 (mostly April 1944)

I don't see any possibilities in the late Aug - early Oct 1944 period for P-38s. Anyone who appears to be still missing seems to have been lost well outside of Yugoslavia.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

The original investigators did look at a few 9th AF losses. The MACR numbers show up on their list. I don't know if they were just going by loss dates or whether they really thought a 9th AF plane could end up in Yugoslavia.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I have found several planes that were "last seen" on other places.
One was seen to crash into Adriatic, while it fell some 250km away in mainland.
In other case plane was last seen in Germany, while it landed safely in Montenegro.

It did happen that planes were misidenitified, especially if they lost formation.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I have a rather "wild" theory about this. Maybe the MACR is not "missing" but rather the MACR is wrong.

I think we may have a MACR for the name of the pilot, who was from the 1st, 14th or 82nd FG. He was probably lost around Aug to Oct 1944 (but we probably should be willing to expand that range).

In the MACR, it will state either the man was lost (and may have been seen to crash) near Drvar or more likely, he was NOT seen to crash elsewhere. (I think if the MACR says the man was lost near Drvar the orginal investigators would have "found" him.) What is wrong with the MACR is the serial numbers. I think our man may have been flying a plane with a serial number in the range 44-23059 to 44-23208 and the MACR may also show a plane in that range. The mistake is that the wrong plane's info got recorded on the MACR. Maybe the pilots switched planes at the last minute, or maybe there was a records screw up.

As an example take MACR 7192 for Lt Howard G Micheli, 1st FG, who is still MIA. He is last seen flying over the northern Adriatic on July 13, 1944. (The date may be too far away from our range) but he was flying 44-23147. He was not able to communicate via radio with other planes in his formation and he seems to just fly away on his own. He was not seen to crash and other pilots in his element thought he would be able to land somewhere in friendly territory. The other planes in his element landed on Vis.

How many other MACRs can we find like this, particularly in the date range Aug to Oct 1944?

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

If all serials in MACR are wrong (which sounds rather strange), then it can not be identified anyway by those data.

I agree on your possible range of units and dates.
I would check if there are some losses in such range, for which there is no MACR.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

A slightly different approach and hampered by having no access to fold3 to check gun numbers or the like.

If the pilot of Drvar is (also) unknown, then perhaps look at P-38 losses in the wider area with MIA/FOD till this day.
One example may be MACR 9074 with Lt Donald I. Lindberg in 43-28630, lost on 11 Oct 1944, 1st FG. "Last seen" 45 N and 16.20 E.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

That might be a possibility, too. It is believed that Donald I Lindberg had an oxygen failure. He was last seen flying off into a cloud at 20,000 feet, the time was 11:20. He is still listed MIA.

He is last seen 'near' the area of the crash (about 45 miles away). His plane is listed as 43-28630 (MACR 9074) with engines A-045364 and A-045193. Guns are: 1029875, 1032764, 689502, 689712.
20mm is 118642.

Now if these serial numbers are the "wrong" numbers, probably the only way we could prove it would be to find the some of the same numbers on another MACR, or find some of the original records of the group or find the aircraft record card and see that the plane was not infact lost that day.

It is interesting that Joe Baugher does not list 43-28630 on his serial number list. I wonder if he saw something that was confusing enough that he left it off. He normally seems to get most of the planes that have MACRs.

Also interesting is the time of day. The IDPF file gives the time of the crash, as stated by the civilian witnesses, as 12:00.
What does not seem to match up (besides the date of the crash) is the weather. The MACR has 8/10 to 9/10 overcast at 22,000 to 28,000 feet. The civilians say the weather was clear. I wonder if the 45 miles difference would make that much change in the weather in that area.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

The DPAA still lists about 210 pilots from these three FGs as MIA, but only 48 of them with dates after August 1944. However, some of those are listed with the "finding of death" date that usually happened at least one year and a day after a service member was reported missing - sorting out those cases known to have happened from late 1943 and early 1944 leaves a list of only 20 MIA cases.

1. 1944-08-14 1LT MCCONNELL, W C JR (O-816901) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 7976: P-38J 42-104123 seen to crash at Montfrin, France on 14 Aug 1944
2. 1944-08-16 1LT WOODY, WAYNE R (O-760217) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 8630: P-38J 43-28345 seen to crash near Corsica on 16 Aug 1944
3. 1944-08-20 2LT STJOHN, WALTER O JR (O-766377) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 7978: P-38J 43-28637 seen to crash near Nimes, France on 20 Aug 1944
4. 1944-10-20 2LT TWEDT, LOWELL S (O-806552) 71 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9313: P-38J 43-28799 mid-air crash with 43-28777 northeast of Bolzano, Italy on 20 Oct 1944
5. 1944-11-07 2LT BREWER, PHILIP (O-715462) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 9694: P-38L 44-24035 lost over Serbia on 7 Nov 1944
6. 1944-11-11 1LT JENSEN, RUSSEL E (O-826983) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9802: P-38J 42-104248 lost over Italy on 11 Nov 1944
7. 1944-11-16 2LT STEFFANI, EDWARD (O-708161) 71 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9893: P-38L 44-24407 lost over Yugoslavia on 16 Nov 1944
8. 1945-01-12 1LT COOKSON, JEROLD A (O-763504) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 11088: P-38J 43-28769 lost over Italy on 12 Jan 1945
9. 1945-01-20 2LT COOK, GLENN A (O-770185) 48 FS/14 FG >> MACR 11389: P-38J 44-24638 lost over Adriatic Sea on 20 Jan 1945
10. 1945-02-17 1LT GRAHAM, CARL G (O-769804) 97 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
11. 1945-03-10 2LT SINCLAIR, HERSCHEL T (O-773836) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 13005: P-38J 43-28547 seen to crash in Adriatic Sea on 10 Mar 1945
12. 1945-03-18 CPT MEIDINGER, JOHN C (O-743471) 48 FS/14 FG >> MACR 13067: P-38L 44-25041 lost over Yugoslavia on 18 Mar 1945
13. 1945-04-08 1LT ZIMMERMANN, RICHARD (O-684597) 48 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
14. 1945-04-22 1LT ANDERSON, ERNEST L (O-767063) 95 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Mediterranean Sea
15. 1945-08-17 1LT TOWNSEND, CHARLES C (O-746225) 37 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
16. 1945-08-20 1LT STRADER, LEROY C (O-753754) 37 FS/14 FG >> MACR 8341: P-38J 43-28336 missing on transfer from UK to Italy on 19 Aug 1944
17. 1945-10-12 1LT LINDBERG, DONALD I (O-770328) 27 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9074: P-38J 43-28630 lost over Yugoslavia on 11 Oct 1944
18. 1945-11-08 2LT COULSON, ELDON E (O-715478) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 9696: P-38J 43-28662 lost over Yugoslavia on 7 Nov 1944
19. 1945-11-22 1LT FOLLETT, JOHN R (O-762304) 27 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9970: P-38L 44-24444 lost over Yugoslavia on 21 Nov 1944
20. 1946-04-01 1LT GILLEN, R G (O-756537) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 13479: P-38L 44-24654 lost over Austria on 31 Mar 1945

I've checked all cases with known MACRs except 9694 and 9696 but the serial numbers given in them are completely different. Case #16 could be of interest in our search, but unfortunately MACR 8341 does not list any serial numbers. However, there still are four cases where no MACR could be found yet.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

5, 7, 12, 17, 18, 19 can be ruled out, I checked MACRs.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I think 1-4 can be ruled out because the planes were seen to crash. I think the criteria for ruling a plane out has to be the the plane was very likely seen to crash.

6 I think can be ruled out because in the MACR a couple of witnesses seem pretty sure they could see the crash location in the water about 2000-3000 feet off shore.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

8 I think can be ruled out as the last seen location was in Northern Italy at 13:25.

So at this point we still have: (if I am checking correctly) 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

9. 1945-01-20 2LT COOK, GLENN A (O-770185) 48 FS/14 FG >> MACR 11389: P-38J 44-24638 lost over Adriatic Sea on 20 Jan 1945
10. 1945-02-17 1LT GRAHAM, CARL G (O-769804) 97 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
11. 1945-03-10 2LT SINCLAIR, HERSCHEL T (O-773836) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 13005: P-38J 43-28547 seen to crash in Adriatic Sea on 10 Mar 1945
13. 1945-04-08 1LT ZIMMERMANN, RICHARD (O-684597) 48 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
14. 1945-04-22 1LT ANDERSON, ERNEST L (O-767063) 95 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Mediterranean Sea
15. 1945-08-17 1LT TOWNSEND, CHARLES C (O-746225) 37 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
16. 1945-08-20 1LT STRADER, LEROY C (O-753754) 37 FS/14 FG >> MACR 8341: P-38J 43-28336 missing on transfer from UK to Italy on 19 Aug 1944
20. 1946-04-01 1LT GILLEN, R G (O-756537) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 13479: P-38L 44-24654 lost over Austria on 31 Mar 1945

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I am not sure why Vathra ruled out 17 Lindberg.

Also on 8 I think it can be ruled out as two witnesses in the MACR claim they could see the crash site about 2000 to 3000 feet offshore.

So at this point we have 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17?? , 20

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

17. I checked his MACR, no serials match.
BTW, Rswank didn't we discuss the case of Donald Lindberg some time ago?
We (or someone else) concluded it matches other case. I informed DPAA about it, and it seems they will do DNA analysis.

And simply based on dates, I think only 15 and 16 could fit given period.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Vathra, the serials number are not going to match if we think it possible an error was made in the MACR. None of the 20 on the list will have matching serial numbers.

Number 10, Graham was apparently lost on 2/17/1945.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

Sorry we misunderstood.
I have checked again 7, 12 and 19.
They are seen to crashed on another place.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

5th PRG F-5s were regularly flying over Yugo as well, maybe one of them?

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

F-5s were not armed

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

I have one of their MACRs and there were no MGs installed.

Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
 

The MACR number for number 9 , Glenn A Cook is actually 11834.
He was lost 20 Jan 1945. He was last seen over the Adriatic at 44 30 N, 13 20E.

Cook turned back on a misson over Yugoslavia and was being led home by a Lt Archer. Archer was not sure why Cook turned back.
Cook was flying in trail of Archer and they climb to get over cloud bank. When Archer checks behind him Cook is gone. The date may be outside our range but perhaps he just goes to the bottom of our list of possiblilites.