EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello,

I am trying to find out if in 1944/45 the different Staffeln of EJG 1 flew different fighter types (i.e. Fw 190 or Bf 109) or if they flew both types at the same time. My hypothesis is that each Staffel flew only one type.

From logbooks of EJG 1 pilots, it looks as if the following Staffeln of I. and II. Gruppe flew Fw 190s:

1.
2.
6.
8.

and the following Bf 109s:

3.
9.

and unknown aircraft type for the following:

4.
5.
7.

Often I only had one logbook per Staffel, so it may still be that the Staffeln did not use one the 190 or 109 exclusively. That is only an assumption I made.

Maybe loss lists could tell more. If there were losses of the same Staffel of both Fw 190 and Bf 109, my hypothesis would be wrong.

Does anybody have aircraft losses of EJG 1 in 1945?

Thanks,
Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi Roger,

7./ EJG 1 flew Fw190D-9 from Berlin-Gatow.

Best

Michael

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi Roger,

My uncle was with EJG1 in 1945 and I have his logbook, let me get it out and have a look.

EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi guys

I am aware of at least three notable pilots that were lost while serving with EJG 1 in 1945: Fähnrich Josef Quarda (52 victories) of 1./EJG 1 in Fw 190 A-8 "White 7" (W.Nr. 732 108) by German Flak east of Schafhaus on 5 March 1945, Leutnant Hans Adam (12 victories) of 3./EJG 1 in Bf 109 G-14 "Yellow 36" (W.Nr. 166 341) in aerial combat with USAAF P-51 fighters west of Haderslev on 12 March 1945 and Oberfeldwebel Wilhelm Mink (62 victories, RK) of I./EJG 1 in Bf 109 G-14 (W.Nr. 464 454) in aerial combat with USAAF P-51 fighters west of Haderslev on 12 March 1945. I hope this helps somewhat.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi all,

Thank you very much for your input. If the correct unit was indeed EJG 1, it looks as if it was 1./EJG 1. Based on the above information, logbook entries, etc. I get the following:

I./EJG 1:
1./EJG 1: White Fw 190
2./EJG 1: Black Bf 109
3./EJG 1: Yellow Bf 109
4./EJG 1: ? ?, merged with 3./EJG 1 on 17.4.45, became 10./EJG 1

II./EJG 1:
Converted to Fw 190 D-9 at the beginning of March 1945 at Berlin Gatow

Are there any more known losses that would shed some more light into the Staffel colors and aircraft types? It may still be that they had both the 109 and 190 in one Staffel, but my hypothesis is that they had one type per Staffel.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Roger,
my database contains information on nearly 1.200 Bf109 and Fw190 allocated to EJG 1, mostly with Werknummern and most information from ULTRA and NVM. Only for around 300 a/c the Staffel was reported. The database does not include information from logbooks, when no Werknummer or special incident was reported. The info generally stops in late March 1945, for April I lack knowlegde. So the picture certainly is not complete, but I think, it could be a hint to the real situation:


1. Staffel white: mixed Bf 109 and Fw190, last three entries from March 45 are Fw190
2. Staffel black or red: Started with Fw190 only till early Feb., mixed A-2, A-5, A-8. Last three from 2/3.1945 are BF109G14. A single Fw190 D-9 is unclear
3. Staffel mostly yellow, also white and green: Bf109 all the time, G-6 and G-14
4. Staffel blue, single white: Only info on five a/c, Bf 109 G-6 and G-14, a single Fw190 A-8
5. Staffel white: Bf109 only, G-6 and G-14, a single G-5
6. Staffel red: 190 only, mostly A-8, single A-5, A-6 and A-7
7. Staffel yellow: Bf 109 G-6 and a single G-5, in November 1944a lonely Fw190 A-6
8. Staffel white: Fw 190 only, A-5, A-7, A-8
9. Staffel white: Bf 109 G-6 only, a single G-14
10. Staffel black: Bf109 only, G-6 and G-14, a single G-5
11. Staffel yellow: Fw190 till Jan., three entries after 1.2.1945 are Bf109
12. Staffel white: Bf109 all the time, G-6 and G-14
13. Staffel white: Bf109 all the time, G-6 and G-14, a single G-12
14. Staffel redbrown: Bf109 all the time, G-6 and G-14
15. Staffel yellow: Fw190 only, all A-8
16. Staffel blue: Fw190 only, all A-8
17. Staffel no info: Bf109 all the time, G-6 and G-14.

HTH

Carl

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Carl,

Thank you very much. That really helps a lot! The background of my question is that I'd like to identify the unit of Fw 190 F-8, W.Nr. 587108, 'White 48' of which I published photos in my 'Captured Eagles Vol. I' book. If it was EJG 1, 1./EJG 1 would seem the most likely one (if they did not use Gruppe markings, 8./EJG 1 would also be an option).

I found several other Fw 190 with an identical style of tactical markings:

Fw 190, W.Nr. ?, ‘White 17’, found at Berlin Gatow, Germany
Fw 190, W.Nr. ?, ‘White 22’, found at Flensburg Weiche, Germany
Fw 190 F-8, W.Nr. 581663, ’White 37’, found at Vaerløse, Denmark
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 170088, ‘White 40’, found at Flensburg Weiche, Germany
Fw 190 F-8, W.Nr. 587108, ’White 48’, found at Lippstadt, Germany

Since all were found in the north of Germany / south of Denmark, my initial hypothesis was EJG 1 or SG 151. Some Staffel of EJG 1 were at Flensburg and Berlin Gatow. 14./SG 151 was at Vaerlose and I./SG 151 at Grove, Denmark.

Looking at the EJG 1 losses you provided, what speaks against EJG 1 is that only Fw 190 A-subtypes are mentioned, no F-subtype, while at least two of the Fw 190 mentioned above were F-8. But the picture may have been different in April 1945.

On the other hand, SG 151 virtually only reported F-subtypes in fall 1944 and only a handful of A-subtypes.

Do you also have information on I./SG 151 losses? Are there also Fw 190 A mentioned?

Thanks again!

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello,
It seams we have also some planes from EJG1 at Bad Aibling:

Fw 190 A-3, W.Nr. 2168 "White 8"
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 960233 "White 7"
Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr.? "White 8"

All these planes were visibles on the same picture.

Best regards,
Lumabe.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

I/EJG: 1 and 2 Staffel Fw 190. 3 and 4 Bf 109.
Vaerlöse is 14/SG 151!

Junker

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello all,

Regarding the Fw 190s that were abandoned at Einsatzhafen Vaerlöse, and as their possibly being from I./EJG 1, I must agree with Junker that they were instead most likely from 14./SG151.

The vast majority of these Fw 190s were older A-5/U8s (ex G-2s); G-3s; and F-8s. Interestingly, most of them featured flame shields above their exhausts; gun trough shields; and distinctive small white (or yellow?) plane numerals.

Finally, Roger listed “White 37” found at Vaerlöse as being Fw 190 F-8 WNr. 581663. I believe that he may actually be referring to Fw 190 A-5/U8, WNr. 151563 (ex G-2 WNr. 181563), which was uniquely marked with a large 37+ yellow (including on its wheel covers). My contention is supported by its WNr. which can be seen on several prints in my possession.

I welcome corrections or additions to my statements.

Steve Sheflin

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Lumabe,

Yes, they probably were attached to IV./EJG 1 that was stationed in the South at the end of the war.

Hello Junker,

Yes, Vaerlöse is 14./SG 151. I haven't seen a photo of one of their aircraft yet. It may well be that they used completely different styles of tactical markings.

Hello Steve,

Unfortunately, I can't attach a photo (it seems only to work if one can provide a link to a photo), but it was published in a Polish book about captured Butcherbirds. It shows '37' without propeller and rudder next to a Fw 190 coded 'White 5'. The color artwork also shows the '37' on the landing gear cover. They have interpreted it to be a white tactical code and a red '37' on the landing gear cover. I trust your judgment that it was in fact yellow.

Since 3./EJG 1 flew mainly Bf 109s and apparently used yellow codes, it would imply that 'Yellow 37' is not from EJG 1. Interestingly the font type of the code is almost identical to the one on 'White 48'.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Roger, you can attach an image provided it is on your computer, it doesn't have to be a link on the net (there are restrictions on file size though). If you click the paperclip symbol, it brings up a window "manage attachments". In that window are buttons saying "Browse ..." Click one of those and it should bring up a directory window from which you can find the image on your computer. Once you've done that, just hit the "upload" button.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Nick,

Thank you for explaining how to attach photos. I could attach it. The quality is not that good unfortunately, but should be sufficient to see if it is one and the same aircraft.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Roger,

I have this picture on the book: "Focke Wulf FW190 in action, Squadron/signal publications" page 41 with this legend: "Among the aircraft belonging to a training unit can be seen a Fw 190A-8/U1 two seated trainer. Of particular interest is the variety of color schemes found in this line up. (IWM)

The picture shows ten planes.

Best regards,

Lumabe.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Not to forget the pictures from Mühldorf-Mettenheim a/f in Wings of the Black Cross 7 showing damaged Bf109s numbered with black 2-digit marks designated for cannibalizing. Most likely from IV./EJG 1

Regards
RolandF

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Regarding #7

Hello Roger,

around 60 reports on I./SG 151 in late 1944/1945. Mostly Fw190 F-8 and a few F-9. Three F-3 and single G3 and G-8. Often Baureihe /R1, There is only one A-5 reported on 22.01.1945, but without a Werknummer, so I think this is a typo.

For your research it may be interesting, to see what happened to SG 151 in April 1945 (source: MA Freiburg, RL2/III 69):

SG 151 was reorganized 8.4.1945 like
Stab SG 151
Stab I/SG 151 with 1., 2. and 12. Staffel
Stab II/SG 151 with 3. to 6. Staffel
independent 14. and 15. Staffel
Umrüstkommando (S)

14. Staffel was put under the control ("Unterstellt) of 15. Staffel,
Panzerblitz-Ausbildungs-Kommando under 12. Staffel,
Erg.Kdo Bü 181 under 15. Staffel and
Umrüstkommando (S) under Stab SG 151.

Stab III/SG 151 with 7. to 9. Staffel and Stab IV/SG 151 were disbanded at the same time. I have no clue, what happend with 10. to 13. Staffel.

3. and 6./SG 151 were disbanded 19.04.1945.

Greetings

Carl

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Very interesting Charles

The date 8.4.1945 is one which seems to have been missed (or disregarded?) by de Zeng IV/Stankey in their Dive-bomber/Ground Attack vol 2 book. I interpret their sources that they at least know about the BA-MA RL 2 III documents. But since a major disbandment took place on April 3rd, your date makes sense. The major difference seems to be you claim 3./SG 151 now came under II./SG 151 while they claim it was still with I./SG 151.

Further they say that Stab IV./SG 151 and their 10. and 11. Staffeln were disbanded on 19.4.1945, while the 12.(See)/SG 151 was disbanded between 4-8.5.1945.

13./SG 151 disbanded early May 1945 at Avnö, Denmark when they surrendered to the British.

Cheers
Stig

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Stig,

RL2/III 69 is a collection of orders from Generalquartiermeister 2. Abteilung. The date I listed is the day, when the order for reorganization/disbandment was filed. We know, that implementation of such orders often was delayed or even disobeyed, especially late war. So, the transfer of 3./SG 151 to II. Gruppe may have been on paper only and de Zeng is perfectly right.

When digging a little deeper I found another original document with has some differing data. Luftwaffenorganisationsstab Generalstab GQM
2. Abteilung (IIB) on 19. Mai 1945 (yes: after VE) reported
I/SG 151 with 1. and 2. Staffel at Schleswig, 12. Staffel (See) at Großenbrode
II/SG 151 with 4. and 5. Staffel at an unknown location
III/SG 151 with 7. to 9. Staffel disbanded 3.4.1945
IV/SG 151 with 10. and 11. Staffel disbanded 3.4.45
14. Staffel at Schleswig and 15. Staffel at Lübeck-Blankensee.

Greetings
Carl

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

There are a lot of errors in the list provided by Carl.
St I, 1. and 2. Staffel SG151 marched home from Grove/DK may 1945. The same with 14. Staffel who was at Vaerlöse/DK. From Aunö PanzerJagdstaffel SG 151 marched home at the same time.

But it's correct that 3/SG 151 did nor belong to I Gruppe. Confirmed by the StKptn of first Staffel years ago.

As for Fw 190 at Vaerlöse. Those with numbers belonged to 14/SG 151, and those with Skz. belonged to Schiesschule der Luftwaffe.

Junker

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

17.02.45: From 12./SG 151 to SG 151 at Bayreuth-Bindlach: at [Lübeck-] Blankensee on 17th with 27 aircraft: 20(19) Fw 190 and 7(2) Ju 87. No fuel or bombs. (ULTRA BT 5361)

20.02.45: III./KG 200 at Staaken directed to supply 12 Fw 190 and ground staff to 14./SG 151 (Hptm. Eberspaecher). 14./SG 151 to undertake "simple" night attacks on account of its state of training. (BA-MA RL2 III/67)

17.04.45: OKL early 17th, General der Schlachtflieger transferring to Schongau (comment: from Rangsdorf and Ansbach). Stab/SG 151 to administer units in northern area. (KO 643)

18.04.45: General der Schlachtflieger requested SG 151 Schleswig-See for location Bücker 181 Nachtschlacht "Kommandos" 1, 2, 4, 9 and 10.

Comment: first mention Bücker 181 units 1, 2, 4, 9 and 10. Compare KO 1476 for information 18th regarding arrival 10. Panzerjagdstaffel at Straubing and further transfer to Münsteuer. On 17th, SG 151 at Rangsdorf to administer ground-attack units in northern area upon transfer General der Schlachtflieger to Schongau. (KO 1487)

06.05.45: III./KG 200 at Eggebek with 31 Fw 190, 446 personnel, 41 aircrew; I./SG 151 at Grove with Fw 190s (number unknown) and 357 personnel; 14./SG 151 at Vaerlose with Fw 190s (number unknown) and 185 personnel. (AIR55/227: HQ 2TAF Disarmament Intelligence Summary No. 2)

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi Roger,

Sorry for the delay, had to find this Flugbuch. Here are some scans that may be of interest to you.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Charles, Steve, Nick, Junker et al,

Since out of 60 reports for I./SG 151 only one was a Fw 190 A-5, it is unlikely that I./SG 151 was the unit to which Fw 190 F-8 'White 48' belonged to. Several other Fw 190 that carried codes with a virtually identical font / style as on 'White 48' were A-subtypes.

If "Yellow 37" at Varloese was indeed a bird of 14./SG 151, 'White 48' was definately not from 14./SG 151. Steve, are you sure that it was not 'White 37'? I only have that one photo from the Polish book and cannot really be sure about the color. But I assume there exists several other photos where it is clear that the color was not white and most likely yellow.

On the other hand, there is no F-subtype in the EJG 1 list that Charles provided.

I assume the unit to which 'White 48' belonged to was either EJG 1 or SG 151 as there was no other larger training / replacement unit in the North as far as I know. If so, I tend more towards EJG 1.

The information regarding 14./SG 151 is also interesting to me since I own a control stick from a Fw 190 G-3, W.Nr. 160896 that was once with KG 51, then SKG 10 and finally 14./SG 151. Since SKG 10 operated at night, it may well be one of the Fw 190s at Vaerlose with flame shields above the exhausts. Is there a book where photos of the 190 at Vaerlose were published. So far, I have not been able to find a picture of W.Nr. 160896. It must have survived the war as the control stick was removed by an American soldier. Maybe it was found at Schleswig or Vaerlose (although that as far as I know was in the British zone).

Hello Vince,

Thanks for the scans of your uncle's logbook. He flew with 14./EJG 1 in the South of Germany. So, not the unit to which 'White 48' belonged to. But the entries regarding the Me 262 and Do 335 inspection at Riem are very interesting and not something I have seen before.

Thank you all.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

PS: Attached is a photo of yet another Fw 190 that features a very similar tactical code like 'White 48' found at Lippstadt.

Does anybody know more about this particular aircraft? It may help identify the unit of 'White 48'.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

The 'White 48' was found at Lippstadt, which is located between Dortmund and Bielefeld, some 50km east of the Ruhr area.

Neither EJG 1 nor SG 151 were ever based in that area, the owner of this aircraft must have been a completely different unit.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

"Neither EJG 1 nor SG 151 were ever based in that area, the owner of this aircraft must have been a completely different unit."

But aircraft are mobile (a big problem for historians!), so it could have come to Lippstadt from just about anywhere.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

As far as I remember, "white 25" belonged to one of the Erg.JGr., most probably West.

Best

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

2 from Grove and 1 from Vaerlöse and a Flugbefehl..

Junker

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Gerhard, Nick, Schlageter and Junker,

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Gerhard, I noted as well that Lippstadt is not that close to the area Berlin or Flensburg. But I could not find another larger replacement unit that was active in 1945 in the area of Lippstadt. In addition, several other Fw 190 with almost identical styles of the tactical markings were found around Berlin, Flensburg, South of Denmark. Therefore my conclusion was that 'White 48' probably came from the North of Germany, but was flown for whatever reason to Lippstadt before the end of the war.

Schlageter, interesting. Erg.JGr. West was only active until Nov44 and therefore was probably not the unit to which 'White 48' and the others found at the end of the war belonged to as I doubt that they would not have been reassigned to other units between Nov44 an May45. Nevertheless, interesting to see that another replacement unit used very similar tactical markings.

Junker, thank you very much for the pictures. The font type is slightly different from the one on 'White 48' and the others I listed earlier, which would support my believe that it was rather 1./EJG 1 than SG 151. Good to know that 14./SG 151 used White codes.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

I can remember that there was also an Einsatzstaffel/EJG 1.
About Fw 190A-8 960233 white 7 found at Bad Aibling (former 50 ?), could it be a plane from this staffel or from another one in EJG 1 (but which ?) ?

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

I think I found another hint that the correct unit was probably 1./EJG 1:

Fw 190 A-8, W.Nr. 580400, White 2 had a very similar font type of its tactical marking.
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/mombeek1.jpg

While the aircraft is generally associated with 5./JG 4 according to online sources, it was mentioned in ULTRA reports: on 6 December 1944 it was assigned to I./EJG 1. It left EJG 1 again two months later on 8 February 1944. My theory is that the photo was taken while the aircraft was with EJG 1. It may have been with JG 4 before (or more unlikely after) it spent time with EJG 1 and that it is now generally associated with JG 4. Other Fw 190 of 5./JG 4 had white codes of a different font type and with black outline.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Roger,

Maybe W.Nr. 300400 ? If I have good eyes.

That do you think about this "White 47"

http://lumabe.free.fr/Divers/fw190a9white47.jpg

I remember this plane was posted on a forum few years ago about the possibility to have a Ta-152 type of tail.

Best regards,

Lumabe.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello lumabe,

The font size is a bit different from White 48 and the other 190s. It could be from the same unit, but possibly also from another one. If the location is known, that may help to narrow down the unit.

One other thought: the well known Fw 190 S-8, White 30, of JG 110 found at Köthen has a very similar tactical code:

http://falkeeins.blogspot.ch/2011/06...-8-jg-110.html

I have not considered JG 110 so far since they must have had various aircraft types to train new pilots while replacement units already had more experienced pilots and typically had only aircraft types that would later be used for operations.

However, 1./JG 110 was last Braunschweig Waggum at the end of the war, less far from both Lippstadt and Hopsten, where another Fw 190 with a similar tactical code was found. On the other hand, all Fw 190s are missing a unit emblem like on The Fw 190 S-8's cowling. So, just a thought. Maybe too far fetched.

Roger

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Jorn,

Based on your comments and images, is it right to assume that this F-8 machine was associated with 2./SG 151? It was flown to Wunstorf and surrendered there by its pilot on May 8, 1945. The origin of the flight is unknown.

Cheers,

David

http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Da...ry2zv.jpg.html

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Jorn,

Based on your comments and images, am I right to assume that the F-8 "Red 25" was associated with 2.SG 151? It was surrendered to RCAF 401 Sq. at Wunstorf on Mya 8, 1945.

Cheers,

David

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4okry2zv.jpg

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hi David.

If he landed on the 8 may, it's not flown from Denmark. Parts of I/SG 151 started from Grove/DK on the morning 5 may 45 flying to Norway, but the GrpKdr and a few of the instructors flew south!

Junker

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Greetings everyone,

Unless am mistaken, the Fw 190 shown surrendered at Einsatzhafen Wunstorf is marked as 2+ red, not 25+ red.

Steve Sheflin

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello,

This plane with more contrast an a close up.

http://lumabe.free.fr/Divers/Fw190F-...5-close-up.jpg

Best regards,

Lumabe.

Re: EJG 1 1945: Which Staffel flew Fw 190, which Bf 109?
 

Hello Lumabe,

All right then, I stand corrected. This is another example of why I love this site, I'm always learning.

Steve Sheflin