Unknown Aircraft
 

Another puzzler....

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Hi,
french civil plane used by armee d' Air. I think the "A" tell about ty general type of plane (number of engines etc.)
h.

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

While it certainly shows a crashed impressed civil aircraft (no I am not able to identify it) the letter A simply represent the main French register system at the time and does not identify as such neither the type nor the number of engines.
Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Thank you gentlemen. This is an area of which I have no knowledge.

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

This original photo is in my possession. I cannot identify it, though.

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

This picture puzzles me.

"F" would be the civil register in France
(military aircraft had letters but other types of markings).
and the next letter "A" would position this picture in the 30's.
For example, the famous Caudron in which Saint Exupery went lost in the Lybian desert was marked F-ANRY.

However, the roundel is a military one.

Could we have a civil aircraft that was taken by the French army in 1940 ?

A real mystery stands in this picture.

GC

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Gilles

There is no mystery in that photo if we except we don't know the type...:)

Large number of civil aircraft were impressed by the French Government in 1939-40 after the war broke out. Large number of photos exist of civil registered aircraft now decorated with the French military roundels.

That the 'A' visible in itself should identify an airplane from the 1930s is not correct (even if it is very likely). The introduction of the F-Axxx register came about already in 1920, the earliest one known carrying F-ABAB was registered in May that year. For a while the second letter identified the year, ie F-ABxx being 1920, F-ADxx being 1921, F-AExx being 1922 etc. This system was dropped at the end of 1925 and from then on a straight register system was begun regardless of year. For some reason the F-ACxx block was dropped.

This does not bring us any closer to what we are looking at, unfortunately.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Dear all,

upon checking with my French colleagues, I received the following suggestion:

Amiot 370 "F-AREU", which was scrapped in 1947;

that would make sense, don't you think ?

GC

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Sorry Gilles, not to me

There is a photo of F-AREU at Tolouse in 1945 where it no longer carry any military roundels. Since it was non flying for about three years at that point, it makes no sense to me for it to be re-painted and just scrapped.

The aircraft was very briefly painted with French roundels in 1940 but after the armistice reverted back to pure civil marking (ie no roundels). After its accident at Athens 13.3.1942 it returned to France and was still under repairs at Tolouse-Blagnac when the Germans occupied the rest of France in Nov 1942. It probably never flew again and in 1945 was still quite intact but no roundels anywhere.

The photo above is not, as far as I can see, an aircraft being scrapped, it is one that has crashed and probably also burned.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Hi Stig and others,

the French team is working hard:

- the Caudron aiglon has been eliminated due to the fact that it was made of wood, whereas this wing is metallic, and the thickness of the wing also;
- the Dewoitine 338 was contemplated, and it could have made sense, in a way that they were requisitioned by the French Armée de l'air, so, roundels with registration marks were in favor of that, but the shape of the aileron don't match ;
- the lastest option envisaged is the Wibault 282 (or 283) see photo attached;

So : we are progressing but the A/C type of this picture still remains an open question.

GC

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Well Gilles, this is a tough nut to crack! :)

I think we can discard the Wibault. Only two are known to have been requisitioned by Armée de l'Air, No 12 F-AMYE and one unknown.

As far as I know No 12 was camouflage painted but no roundels applied. The second was probably finished the same way.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Hi,
Sorry for my bad english, so:
" ...Only two are known to have been requisitioned by Armée de l'Air, No 12 F-AMYE and one unknown..."
You do a big error, 11 Wibault 282/283 were requisitionned,
Wibault 282:
prototype 02 (F-AKEL), n°3 ((F-AMHN), n°4 (F-AMHK)
Wibault 283:
ex-prototype 01 (F-AKEK), ex-W.282 n° 5 (F-AMHO), n°10 (F-AMTT), n°12 (F-AMYE),n° 13 (F-AMYF), n°14 (F-ANBK), n°17 (F-ANBN), n°18 (F-ANBO).

All of them had roundels and flag.
Jean-Paul

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Jean-Paul

Interesting, which means you know more than both Louis Attenoux and Claude Petit.
They don't have any of your information, so I would be interested to know on what you base your statement. Any written records or photo evidence?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

My source:SHD/Air via:
Les Ailes françaises 1939-1945, n°11"Le transport aérien"(1936-1940) &
12 "Le transport aérien"(1940-1945) , éditor TMA SARL 2014

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Ahh

Shame on me. I have that issue myself. So it goes when one has too many sources and don't update one's central file...:o My apologies!

But if you do have that issue, there is not a single photo or drawing which depicts the Wibault transport with the roundel at the rear of the fuselage (which our culprit does have)

So in spite of Adl'A having some Wibault in 1940, it still, in my opinion, does not show the aircraft we are after....

Cheers
Stig

PS: I only have 11 issues of that eminent series. Where can I get issue 12? My supplier never recived any more....

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

For 12 issue, TMA édition is now diffuse by "Artipresse":
http://artipresse.com/?cat=8&lang=fr
To buy 12 issue use "Contact", I hope you read french.
http://artipresse.com/?page_id=25&lang=fr

Gilles asked us on "Aéroforums" about "Unknown aircraft", I suggested Wibault because frontboard is paint as Air France aeroplane, aileron is rectangular without tab.
Just a suggestion after a lot of research.
Jean-Paul

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Thank you very much Jean-Paul

I have sent them an e-mail :) Very, very nice of you!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Hi Stig, kaki3152 and others

this picture has triggered a lot of interest among the French team

seehttp://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumtek/aff.php?nummsg=15775


and although a lot of efforts have been deployed, the answer as to the aircraft type of this picture still remains a mystery.

By chance, don't you have any information as to the background of that picture ? its history ? any stamp on the back ? other ? That could help.

TIA

Gilles

Re: Unknown Aircraft
 

Dear all,

this short message to let you know that the "French team" has evoked many possibilities, there are no certitude sofar, but a general trend emerges that it could be a Wibault 283.

The search continues...

GC