info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hello,

On the net,I have seen five photos of bf 110 rudders with claims

the first with seven claims: 1st polish
2nd and 3rd orange triangles
4th to 7th roundels


the second with seven claims: 1st polish
2nd roundel
3rd and 4th orange triangles
5th to 7th roundels

one with eleven claims : 1st orange triangle
2nd to 8th roundels
9th to 11th reds stars

another with eight claims : 1st to 3rd polish
4th to 8th roundels

and the last with 16 claims : 1st and 2nd polish
3rd to 9th roundels
10th yougoslave
11th to 16th reds stars

Does anybody have any more informations about the pilots with these scoreboards

Greatful for any assistance

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hi

I did search through earlier ZG pilots and don't think these pilots were from ZG26 or ZG76.Trouble is that there is no micro films before July 1942 of ZG1 or ZG2. I don't think ZG1 ever went to Yugoslavia, and ZG2 seemed to almost completely lack aces. Viktor Molders or ZG1 is almost a match.

There are a few non ZG Bf110 flying units around at that time, but again they lacked aces.

I have some questions for your question, and a general one for members.

Are some of the roundels for French aircraft?, and which ones.

Where would a orange triangle denote a claims from. I thought Dutch claims were just a Dutch flag......though with rudder markings things do vary. Also sometimes(like Rollwage) rudder marking indicate if unconfirmed!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hello,

what do you mean by dutch claims were just dutch flag?

here is of what I think

for photo n° 5 it is the rudder of Wilhelm spies ( two polish with I.(schwere jagd)/ LG1 and one yougo with I/ZG 26) source obermaier

the others were I/ZG 1 and II/ZG 1

photo n°1 victor molders ??

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hi

To answer your question about a "Dutch" claim, by memory I seem to recall just a Dutch flag above the bar, but as I say units and individual pilots differ. Yet orange is associated with Nederland, not sure why it would be a triangle though.

My first thought was these are rudders from ZG 1 which had a number of aces from early on, also in Russia from start, but not sure they went to Yugoslavia?

I have the dates for Viktor Molders claims, and it is a close though not perfect match. These are:-

5th September 1939 PZL 37 ~0820 hrs Nr.1
7th September 1939 PZL 37 ~1610 hrs Nr.2
10th May 1940 unknown type Nr.3
11th May 1940 Fokker T5(Dutch) Nr.4
29th May 1940 unknown type Nr.5
5th June 1940 unknown type Nr.6
5th June 1940 unknown type Nr.7
12th June 1940 unknown type Nr.8

All were with 1./ZG 1.

As I say the earlier claims for the whole of ZG 1 are not found, but I do know a lot of the Polish claims, but cannot be 100% on the accuratecy. So I can throw a few names at you. Unlike ZG 2, ZG 1's pilots were awarded many DKiG, so a combination of Polish claims and DKiG winners is likely to give you the names you seek.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Johannes, I believe that the inverted orange triangle was a part of the national markings of the Royal Netherlands Air Force in 1940s, and likely beyond.

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Google Dutch Air Force markings and you will see the triangle

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hi Guys

Certainly seems that the orange triangle was adopted by ZG 1 and others probably in indicate a claim over a Dutch aircraft......thanks for that Chris and Sydney

I'll look again through the scant ZG 1 claims I have to see if anybody sticks out.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

8 claims :
If the last roundel differs form the preceding 4 :
Falck got 3 Polish, 4 British & one Danish.

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hello Johannes

the 8th( or the 7th: I have only one polish claim) of Viktor Molders:12 june 1940 is a french plane of "groupe de transport" 1/601,a FARMAN 224

in your lot of polish claims,have you one to uffz helmut eberlein?

on e-bay, I have seen a photo of a bf 110 rudder with two claims

7/9/39 1 polish
15/4/40 1 br

only two pilots makes claims the 15/4/40

Lt Georg Graner (his first) I(J)/LG2
Uffz Helmut Eberlein I/ZG 1 for one hudson(220°sqd)

thus the pilot who makes a polish claim was Eberlein? no?

thus the photo n°2 is the bf 110 rudder of Eberlein

one polish,one br and two nederlands

what do you think?

regards

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hi

The Eberlein theory sounds convincing, but for the fact that almost all of the ZG units earlier claims are not found on the micro films, there could be other guys who claimed on 15th April 1940 that we just do not know about, and Allied loses are not so much help, I think that generally ZG pilots are not as accurate in there claiming as NJG or even JG pilots.........this is strange as you would think that if hit by a Bf110 that the fire-power would dice an aircraft into oieces.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hi focusfocus,

Referring to your photo of a Bf 110 rudder with two claims

7/9/39 1 polish
15/4/40 1 br

I./ZG1 scored 3 victories on 7 Sep 1939, these being claimed by Oblt Ehle, Oblt Molders and Lt Wilhelm Spies. And since we know that both Ehle and Spies had 2 claims in Poland, the only one with 1 claim on 7 Sep must be Oblt Molders.

We also know that Molders' claim on 7 Sep is his first, as he himself mentions it in the old book "Bf 110 At War" by Armand van Ishoven. So my own 'theory' for this rudder is that he made another [previously unknown] claim on 15 Apr 1940, but this was not confirmed. But I have no way to validate this.

Uffz Helmut Eberlein is not listed as one of the pilots with Polish claims. He had one other claim on 14 May but was then KIA on 15 May 1940.

So from what I know --

- Photo no.1 = Molders
- Photo no.2 = unknown
- Photo no.3 = unknown but very likely a pilot in II./ZG1
- Photo nos. 4 and 5 = already identified as Falck and Spies respectively.

Can you attach a scan of Photo no.2, or give me a url where I can find it? I ask 'cos I've not seen this particular rudder before and it's a mystery I'd like to investigate. Thank you.


Hi Johannes,

Regarding your question on roundels, the black and white films of that time generally showed red as a darker shade than blue, so in close ups or clear photos one usually can distinguish between the British and French roundels, though in distant or poor quality pictures this is pretty difficult to do. To cite one example, though not for a ZG pilot -- recently eBay sold a photo of Wolfgang Lippert's rudder [attached here]. If you zoom in on those dates that can be seen, and compare them with the types in Woods' lists, you'll find that the rudder clearly differentiates between the French and British types.

And I don't think the ZG pilots were 'not accurate' in their claiming -- theirs is simply a case of records being lost or not surviving the war. ZG2 is a good example -- after they were disbanded end Sept 1940, the unit made a short re-appearance for about 6 months in 1942, then disappeared altogether. No unit means no claims, so no documents to be micro-filmed! But that does not mean there were no aces, Eduard Tratt being a good example.

rgds
andre

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hi andre

sorry I don't have scan but look to the site Forum.axishistory.com

luftwaffe air units and luftwaffe in general

luftwaffe rudder marking photos page 14,16 ...

photo n°3 not II/ZG 1 (no claims in poland) but I think I/ZG1 ??

who were the pilots who makes claims in poland with the I/ZG1

for Eberlein my theory is
7/09/39
15/4/40
10/5/40
10/5/40
??/5/40
??/5/40
14/5/40 his last

regards

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

focusfocus,

I've had a high interest in this subject for many years, as we're recreating high quality profiles of all the a/c flown by Bf110 pilots who won the RK during 1940, or into very early 1941. So I have every photo I could find on the subject.

I agree with André's listing. The one still listed as U/I (Item #2) is another version of the Victor Molders scoreboard. Apparently the painter applied two different versions of the scoreboard. I have photos of both of them. Your theory about Eberlein doesn't hold up. I have the full 1939-40 victory list for 1939-40, and he only scored two victories while he was with I./ZG1: the one, a Hudson, on 15.04.40 and another a Spitfire on 14.05.40. He had no other victories with 1./ZG1 so this couldn't represent him. I have no info on victories by him with 1./ZG1 during either the PC or the WC.

Regarding Item #3, I have this image, and I believe that the most likely pilot is Ofw Johannes Lütter ? originally with II./ZG1 but by this time with II./SG210.

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hi larry

receipt 5 on 5!

domage for ma theory about Eberlein !!

it is very strange that the painter applied two different version of scoreboard
of one pilot (molders) but why not!!

regards

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Gunther Tonne of II./ZG1 probably.

If swastika is of old stile (in the center of fin), it could be Oblt. Werner Methfessel of 14.(Z)/LG1. He had 3 in Poland and more in France, untill his death.

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

hi Evgeny

me I have 4 claims in poland for Methfessel

03/09/39
04/09/39
05/09/39
07/09/39
23/11/39 1x morane 406 ( unfounded claim)
29/03/40 2x hurricanes (unfounded claims) vs 1° squadron RAF
02/04/40 1x morane 406 (real claiming!!) vs "groupe de chasse" I/2

regards

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Hello,

As far as I know, a photo of the rudder of Oblt Werner Methfessel's Bf110C during 1939-40 with 14(Z)/LG1 has never surfaced. If anyone knows differently, I'd like to hear from them, as we'd like to profile that a/c for the Eagles Over Europe Project. His a/c later when he was with night fighters has been published, but I know about that one.

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Nightfighter? Are You sure? Does'nt he was shot down and killed by Flak in may '40 over Reims?

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

my informations about Methfessel: not killed by flak but by hurricanes

17/05/1940 V.(Z)/LG1 vs 1°sqd RAF

losses 14° staffel

1 bf 110 ( oblt Werner Methfessel) killed "rosnay" N O reims
1 bf 110 ( uffz Friedrich schmitt) killed "hermonville" N O reims
1 bf 110 ( lt Kurt Schalkhauser) safe "saint-brice-courcelle"

claims:

fw Gerhard Jenzsch 1x hurricane ( 13° staffel)
gef. Jwuhof 1x spitfire(?) ( 13° staffel) Who is this guy??never heard from him!!


losses 1°squadron RAF

F/O Palmer
F/LT Walker "force- landed
Sgt Soper "crash-landed"

well: it would seem that among the killed pilots,one of those this obtained a victory

regards

Re: info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders
 

Thx for correction. Wrote by memory. Fighters, not Flak. Anyway, he didnt survive.