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Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
From Aces lists I have seen, Peter Horn flew with 1./JG51 and had 11 victories. Does anyone have any more information about his achievements on the Eastern Front, aircraft flown, markings?
Thanks |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Here is all we have found about this guy:
HORN, Peter. (DOB: 15.10.15 in Denmark). (n.d.) a Danish volunteer served in the Finnish Air Force before transferring to the Luftwaffe. (n.d.) Lt., I./JG 54. Survived the war. Credited with 11 victories. DGS HLdZ |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
OK, thanks Doug.
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Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Hi Guys
This is a new one to me. The micro films for JG 54 are just about as complete as can be, and no Peter Horn. However the same can be said about JG 51 with the exception of I./JG 51 where the micro films provide only date and time for the earlier claims including the first year of the Sowiet campaign. Most of these date and time only claims have been accounted for via flight-books e.t.c. The other more unlikely story could be claims for 1945 that the micro films do not cover. I'll find out and let you know of the dates/times that I cannot attribute a name to, can't say how many by memory, but hopefully enough to at least keep the "11" claims debate going. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Horn was serving in JG 51.
Junker |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
There is a Wikipedia entry for Peter Horn at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Horn_(pilot)
It gives his date of death as 1 November 1983, and a few more details. Enjoy! Frank. |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Hi Guys
My JG 51 book makes reference to two Horn, both without forename. But the one with I./JG 51 should very well be our guy. It states Leutnant Horn 10+ claims over Russian aircraft. As stated before I have dates/times without names. There are abschüße board help for 1939-1941 but nothing for 1942. Erwin Laskowski is one of the pilots who's claims are during this period, and you would think to be looking for twenty-five Russian claims for him. However his flugbuch shows that there were only ten, plus one unconfirmed, so the JG 51 listing are not 100% accurate. The micro film claims with date and time only that I cannot attribute to individuals are the following sixty-three, and there is no reason why some of these whatever the number shouldn't be Horn's, but what the number is is inclear. 9th January 1942 1047 hrs 10th January 1942 1410 & 1430 hrs 27th January 1942 0947 hrs 30th January 1942 1012 hrs 3rd February 1942 1357 & 1507 hrs 4th February 1942 1245 hrs 5th February 1942 0850 hrs 12th February 1942 1025 hrs 13th February 1942 0556, 1021, 1027 & 1029 hrs 15th February 1942 1233 hrs 16th February 1942 0949 & 1010 hrs 17th February 1942 1230 & 1232 hrs 19th February 1942 0912, 0914 & 1328 hrs 22nd February 1942 1715 hrs 26th February 1942 1032, 1312 & 1319 hrs 27th February 1942 1510 hrs 28th February 1942 1518 hrs 12th March 1942 1705 hrs 15th March 1942 0913 hrs 21st March 1942 1435 & 1449 hrs 22nd March 1942 1132 hrs 23rd March 1942 1450 hrs 28th March 1942 1215 & 1325 hrs 1st April 1942 1052, 1516, 1705, 1708 & 1711 hrs 4th April 1942 1249, 1304 & 1620 hrs 5th April 1942 1455 hrs 6th April 1942 0915, 0919 & 0921 hrs 25th April 1942 1815 hrs 27th April 1942 1855, 1857 & 1900 hrs 29th May 1942 1915 & 1952 hrs 31st May 1942 1047 hrs 7th June 1942 1443 & 1500 hrs 6th July 1942 0952 hrs 8th July 1942 1157, 1158 & 1205 hrs 11th July 1942 0555 hrs 20th July 1942 0830 hrs It is not possible that he claimed(confirmed) before or after these dates. Kind Regards Johannes |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Thanks for the input. If the claims were all made between Jan and July 1942, then according to the records at Asisbiz/Il2, Horn was most likely flying an E-7 up to maybe end of March and then probably an F-2 until August.
I./JG51 then transitioned to FW190a's. If Horn achieved 11 kills in the 109s, it seems odd to me that he didn't have any claims after July 1942 in the better 190s. I found this today - The Rathbonemuseum site http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/DENMAR.../DKPhotos.html has a photo of Horn and says that 6 Danish pilots were accepted into the Luftwaffe and all were killed in action, which is at odds with the Wiki story. Although if true it might explain why he made no more claims after July 1942. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It's a pity there is no detailed information on aircraft he flew. Thanks |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Horn's unit, the I./JG 51. converted from the Bf 109E to the Bf 109F-2 during March 1941 in France, well in advance to operation Barbarossa.
The conversion to the Fw 190A began on 10.08.42 at Jesau. |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Hi Merlin.
Yes, the Il2 figures show 1./JG51 had both E-7 (11) and F-2 (21) in March 1942 (it shows they actually received 6 E-7s in March), and I assumed that it was likely Horn would be flying an E-7 rather than an F-2. I don't know how accurate the Il2 information is, but it's all I have and it has so much detail it just looks right. My assumption is very loose, but I figured as he wasn't German and probably wasn't an ace at that time, he probably didn't get to fly the best a/c ...... |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
PMoz99
The Rathbone Museum site is wrong. Both Peter Horn and Poul Sommer survived the war and died in Denmark. Unfortunately the living relatives of Peter Horn don't want to talk about the past and it has proved impossible for Danish historians to aquire any further details about his life and service in Luftwaffe. Peter Horn's service in Finland is also very obscure and he is not mentioned with the other Danes known to have been there. It seems likely he came too late to be of any use in the Winter War of 1939-40. Like so many others in occupied Europe he chose once again to fight communism and as Johannes already has pointed out, very likely he served in 1942. It also seems likely he returned home that autumn and never returned to the Luftwaffe, at least not in a fighting capacity. Cheers Stig |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
This site does not mention Peter Horn :- http://www.danishww2pilots.dk/articles.php?id=11, is he one of the six mentioned in the article and just flew under the name Horn on joining the Luftwaffe ? One site says Sommer was sentenced to 8 years in prison post war had it increased to 12 years following an appeal but was released in 1950.
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Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Brian
Mikkel Plannthin has removed Horn from his site since the family does not want it to be there. However, you can read what his site once said since the Wikipedia is an exact copy of what he once had. With regard to Sommer, I even believe he in fact faced a death sentence in Denmark, but it was changed to a prison instead. The reason for his punishment is unknown by me, but may possibly have something to do with his transfer with JG 27 to North Africa and after that no longer could claim he was fighting against the communists. B Rgds Stig |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Stig, thanks for the clarification . Another site implied it was seen as OK for Danes to join the Finnish Air force to fight communism but not OK to join the Luftwaffe for the same purpose , but I guess the big difference was that Finland was not occupying Denmark ,
Regards Brian Bines |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Thank you for that information Stig and Brian. I guess then that there never will be any additional information about Horn. A pity, as he was a double ace not unlike Kaj Birksted, but if that is what the family wants, then who are we to argue against it?
Thanks again. |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Brian
I believe you have a very valid point. At least in Scandinavia there was both a general fear of not only communism but also the increasing power of Soviet Union as such. Without going into a lot of political details, I think it is rather safe to say that most individuals who joined the Military ranks at this point in time were more right wing than left wing in their views (you always find exceptions of course). For such individuals it is easy to fall for propaganda talks from 'strong' leaders who are more emotional than truthful, hence the large numbers who in fact listened and also believed what the German propaganda was saying. During the 1930s it was legio to learn German in Sweden, but not necessarily English. With the invasion in 1939 of Finland by Soviet Union large number of individuals including members of the Government was both apalled and outraged. In Sweden it was very easy to side with Finland and practically everyone who could tried to help in one way or another. So yes in 1939 it was very acceptable to go to Finland and fight for the 'right' cause. Sweden, luckily, escaped the horrors of WW 2 and those persons who later joined various SS fractions (even those serving with the tarnished Einsatzkommandon on the Eastern Front) were never punished when they returned. However the situation in Denmark and Norway became very, very different after April 1940. Germany was now the invader and regardless what their main aim was, any fighting for them (the enemy ment nothing any more), ment they had become traitors and were treated like that when they got back. And of course in 1945 it was payback time. Both Poul Sommer and Peter Horn must have paid heavily for their sins, but unfortunately (both in Denmark and Norway) this punishment went on to include also their children and grandchildren, which in my mind was (and is) very wrong. In my world there is no inherent sin. I also think we have to try and see the now living relatives of Peter Horn in that light and accept their decision. B Rgds Stig |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Stig,
I guess in 2016 it is easier to understand the motives of those from occupied countries who joined German forces to fight communism . But in the context of 1945 their actions would have not been seen in a favourable light, when they returned home, by those who lived through the occupations , Regards Brian Bines |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Indeed Brian, indeed!
Cheers Stig |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Wasn´t he from the North Schleswig German minority, part of the Deutsches Reich until 1920? Thus the "free will" to join the german forces was somehow limited as it was with Alsatians, Westprussians and inhabitants of the Eupen-Malmedy region. They were only able to choose the wrong side regardless which side they chose. Being court-martialled was a certain fate - either in 1940 or in 1945.
Regards RolandF |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Sommer joined SS in 1943. He also formed a cops of volunters, to guard LW-installations in Denmark. They were also used to terrorise ordinary Danish people. This was the reason why he recieved a death sentence. But later changed. And no it's not easier to understand the reason behind, to take on the uniform used by the nation who occupied Denmark. The communist scare was real, but was also used, after the war to explain why a person did chose to fight for Germany. Over 50% of those danes that joined the german war effort were members of the Danish nazi-party.
Junker |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Roland
No idea I am afraid. Junker That explains what he did after his return to Denmark and also gives more details about his political views. Since this is a site where political views are not to be discussed, I will not make any further comments in that direction except to say the occupied Denmark during 1940-45 have my full respect and sympathies. B Rgds Stig |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Thank you for that information Stig and Brian. I guess then that there never will be any additional information about Horn. A pity, as he was a double ace not unlike Kaj Birksted, but if that is what the family wants, then who are we to try to change it?
Thanks again. |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Hello. Not sure whether to open a new tread about this or post the info here. I'm mainly interested to find more information about Hptm. Poul Sommer.
So this document from the Bundesarchieve states that he was transferred to Greece and made Staffelkaptaen of the new IV. Group of the JG 27. At least on paper. http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/media/...70622_0003.pdf Other sources claim that he was send to Greece in charge of scouting out new airfields and guarding them. And partisan retaliation. This last piece of information, if it is true, really freaks me out. Was he indeed one of the relatively few "bad apples" in the Fighter units? He spends most of his time in Africa in the Stabschwarm, which could indicate, he didn't really get along very well with the other pilots. And then, a relatively successful pilot, is taken out of action and put in charge of security and furthermore send back to Denmark, where he quickly becomes one of the most hated men in the country and sentenced to death (but later pardoned to 12 years in the can). What a career. "When the young new pilots arrive from school", states Steinhoff in his book "Over the Straits of Messina", "they behave cocky and militaristic. But after the first couple of missions where they realize the brutality of the air war and they have shat themselves, they become much more quite and mature." Well, that obviously didn't apply to Hptm. Sommer. He simply was "kicked out" or frozen out of the Fighter Unit because he was a die-hard until the last day. At least, that's my theory. Cheers |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Good afternoon Gentlemen,
what an interesting thread. Could you agree that provisionally Peter Horn should be pronounced the Danish top ace and that he most probably scored his 11 kills in the Bf109 ? Have a nice Sunday, Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Kaj Birksted is also recorded as having a similar number of kills - 10.5 or 11.5 depending on the source. He flew Spitfires Vb, IX and Mustang IV.
Cheers Peter |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
I prefer 10,5 victories for Birksted:
http://cieldegloire.fr/002n_birksted.php By the way, this book by Aders & Held https://www.amazon.de/Bestell-Nr-425...s+aders%2Fheld has a list of succesful JG51 pilots that includes a Lt. Horn of I./JG51 who has scored 10 victories with the Geschwader. Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Birksted flew Mustang III, not IV, during his time as Wing Commander in Bentwaters Wing. He also carried out operations on the Hurricane and on Spit I and II in the early days of his operational career.
The number of victories credited to him depends - as is mentioned - on the sources, including on how you interpret some of his combat reports. For more in Birksted http://www.danishww2pilots.dk/profiles.php?person=15 I have redesigned my website recently. The page on victories has not yet been redesigned and is therefore offline at the moment. When on-line again, it includes a transcript of all combat reports on Birksted's victories. Mikkel |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Well we still need to identify Horn's victories. Only fact is that is that he got both EK 2 and 1 on the same date. Further problem is that there was at least two different Horn with JG 51.
Junker |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Hello Mikkel.
The only information I have regarding Birksted's Mustang is that he flew his personal Mustang IV home after the war. (taken from Osprey's RAF Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces). I take it from what you said he flew a Mustang III operationally? Do you have any information which corroborates Osprey's claim he had a Mustang IV? Thanks Peter |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Good afternoon Peter,
that book indicates 10+1sh kills for Birksted, doesn't it ? Does is also indicate the top RAF Mustang/Thunderbolt ace ? Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Michael,
Top Mustang Aces - MH Pinches 5+3sh RAF BM Vassiliades 5+2sh Greek GRAM Johnson 5+2sh RAF E Horbaczewski 5+1sh Polish LAP Burra-Robinson 5+1sh RAF PJ Hearne 5 RAF J Bargielowski 5 Polish Top Mustang V1 Aces - J Hartley 12 RAF J Zalenski 9+1sh Polish T Szymanski 8 Polish RG Kleinmayer 7+1sh RNZAF JA Mielnecki 6+1sh Polish E Redhead 6+1sh RAF Thunderbolt Aces - BM Gladych 10 Polish W Lanowski 4 Polish N Cameron 1sh RAF Far East No mention of Birksted in that book, but he had no claims in those a/c. Most of his kills were over the channel in 42/43, so I checked the Spitfire Aces of the Channel Front and they credit him with a total of 10+1sh in that book, as does Aces High. Cheers |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Good evening Peter,
thanks a lot for the data. To resume the initial topic, this is what the JG51 book by Aders/Held offers about Horn (p259):
May it be that the activities of Peter Horn were not recorded like those of the Germans because of his problematical national background ? Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Peter,
Birksted flew in his Mustang III, when returning to Copenhagen in mid-May 1945. It was the same a/c that he had carried out 14 of his 18 operations while at Bentwaters Wing. I do not know Osprey's source of information, but there are wrong. Mikkel |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Thanks Mikkel.
Michael, Horn is not listed in the index of Weal's book. Peter |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
The military record of Peter Horn does exist in BAMA Freiburg, but was until recently it was not possible to gain access. I will look into it some time next year. In the eyes of the NAZI regime, Scandinavians were looked upon as true ariens so his background was not problematic.
Junker |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Good morning Junker,
I didn't assume that the Germans considered his national background problematical. But I thought that the Germans might have thought that his Danish fellow countrymen might cause him troubles. That might have been a reason to treat his record with more discretion than the records of the German, Austrian or Spanish pilots (?) I would be great if you check Horn's record in Freiburg ! Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Those danes who did serve with the german forces were often sympatetic to the nazi course, and they did have a Danish newspaper, called Fædrelandet/Fatherland were many of them told of their service on the eastern front and elswere.
Junker |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Good evening Junkers,
sometimes the Germans dealt with the service of the legionnaires quite diplomatically. For example they sent the Eastern European SS-units to the Western front in the final phase of the war. This was done to prevent them to be captured by the fellow countrymen. But it was of no use: after being captured by the Americans they were handed over to the Soviet Union. Have a nice evening, Michael |
Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
Quote:
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Re: Danish Pilot Peter Horn - aircraft info wanted
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have you had the oppurtunity to check Peter Horn's record in the meantime ? All the best to you, Michael |
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