Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hello

Major Alfred Lindenberger (16 victories), Gruppenkommandeur of II.(Sturm)/JG 300, was wounded and forced to bail out of his Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 17" (W.Nr. 171 666) in aerial combat with P-51 fighters of the 434th FS, 479th FG, USAAF near Halberstadt on 28 September 1944. However, I am not sure if this particular aircraft belonged to the Gruppenstab of II.(Sturm)/JG 300 or the Geschwaderstab of JG 300. Could anyone clarify this issue?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

In part two of the history of JG 300 by Jean-Yves Lorant & Richard Goyat, page 30, the authors note that Major Lindenberg flew an aircraft from the Gruppenstab.

Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hi natttuppen

Many thanks for your response. I had previously read that the Gruppenstab of II.(Sturm)/JG 300 used both green and blue tactical numbers but since I have read that on occasion he allegedly flew as wingman to Major Walter Dahl (102 victories, RK-EL) with the Geschwaderstab of JG 300 which was using blue tactical numbers in 1944 I was confused as to which unit did his aircraft belong to on that date. An example of the use of green tactical numbers by the Gruppenstab of II.(Sturm)/JG 300 would be when Major Kurd Peters (4 victories, DK-G), Gruppenkommandeur of II.(Sturm)/JG 300, was wounded and forced to bail out of his Fw 190 A-7 "Green 5" (W.Nr. 340 303) in aerial combat over Naumburg on 29 June 1944. Many thanks for your help.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

Lindenberger scored his first gunner kill in 1917.
He scored his first pilot kill in 1918.
He scored his last kill in 1944.
26 years of scoring as a pilot, is this an all-time record ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

It could be, very unusual to claim this late in the conflict for a first war claimer. My uncle mentions his exploits in a letter from November, 1944 to the OdL.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Even Robin Olds "only" has a period of 23 years.
http://www.cieldegloire.fr/014_olds_r.php

Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hello

I cannot say with certainty that he was the fighter pilot with the longest career but as Vince points out he stands out from the other Great War pilots that went on to serve with the Luftwaffe and claimed victories in the second conflict by the fact that his were recorded later in the war as compared to others such as Generalleutnant Theodor Osterkamp and Oberst Erich Mix. Quite an impressive achievement considering the nature of the air war for the Germans at that stage.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good morning Leo,

I recommend the fascinating article "In different Skies" by Robin Schäfer which describes the careers of several German airmen who served in both wars. Shall I send it to you via eMail ?

Have a good weekend,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Michael, I would also be interested in this article, as Germans who claimed in both conflicts is a subject dear to my heart.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening VtwinVince,

if memory serves me well, there was a function in the forum to attach pdf's to to a post or message but now I cannot find this function, has it been disabled ?

Michael

Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hello all

Yes, Michael, that would be a very interesting article to read! Perhaps you would be able to upload it to a file sharing site such as https://easyupload.io/ or https://wetransfer.com/ and post the link in the thread? I am also aware of Oberstleutnant Alexander von Winterfeldt, Leutnant Hans Krug, Generalmajor Otto Höhne, Oberst Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp and Oberst Paul Strähle being aces in World War I and later serving in operational units in World War II.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good morning Leo,

I'm interested in these guys, too.

I've sent you an eMail with the article attached.

Sincerely,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Osterkamp would have the highest combined total, if I'm not mistaken.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Yes, 32+6 according to older sources.
But 29+2 according to Johannes Mathews.
I'm curious what Lance Bronnentkant will find out.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Of all the pilots who scored in both wars, Osterkamp hast the highest combined total. The second rank would be occupied by Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp but only if his 18 WW2 kills are more than a hoax. Does anybody of you know more about that ?

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

AFAIK the Bothkamp total is completely spurious. Which would put Mix as the next highest, followed by von Winterfelt. I also have Alfred Mueller, Gerhard Hubrich, Alfred Helm, Friedrich Vollbracht and Dr. Albrecht Ochs on my list.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening VtwinVince,

Alfred Müller is supposed to have scored three kills in WW1.
But I found only the dates of two so far:
5,3.17
25,3.17
Can you tell me the third ?

Have a good Thursday, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

I don't have that missing info, perhaps someone over at the 'drome can help. I'm more familiar with Mueller's activities with JG3, as my uncle was also with his staffel in France.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening Vince,

that's cool.

I've made a list of those who scored in both World Wars and compiled how the different sources agree or disagree. I also determined the age of the pilots, and the year of the first and last kill. The list includes:

• Theodor Osterkamp
• Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp
• Marcel Claude Haegelen
• Alfred Lindenberger
• Erich Mix
• Marius Ambrogi
• Gerhard Hubrich
• Alexander von Winterfeldt
• Lionel de Marmier
• Alfred Müller
• Albrecht Ochs
• Friedrich Vollbracht

Alfred Helm did not score in WW1, did he ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

According to my list, Major Helm had three claims in WW1. Interestingly, I have Mueller with two claims in WW1.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening VtwinVince,

the websites of Safarik and Gleize indicate 3 WW1 kills for Alfred Müller.
But Johannes Mathews quite clearly says 2, both scored on the Eastern Front.

Alfred Helm's WW1 seem to have been scored as an observer. The third was on 25Sep1916. Do you know the dates for the first two ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hi Michael,

Details on Helm are sketchy, perhaps the 'drome can help pin these down as well.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening,

Friedrich Vollbracht is the oldest scorer ever, isn't he ?

Born February 1887,
last kill June 1940,
aged 53 years and four months.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

I think so, by quite a wide margin.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening VtwinVince,

I wonder if it's possible to prove who has scored over the longest period of time.
Alfred Lindenberger who this thread is about has 26 years, 27 years if observer kills are included.
Alfred Helm has 26 years if observer kills are included, maybe 27 years if he has scored a kill in 1915 which we don't know of.
Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp could only compete in the very unlikely case that he has scored a WW2 kill in 1943 or later.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

I think the outer limits are about 27 years. Other notables such as Robin Olds and Stanley Vincent are 'only' in the low twenties, although I think Vincent's claims are not confirmed.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good morning VtwinVince,

Robin Olds has 23 years.
Stanley Vincent was new to me, thanks for the info. He has 24 years.
I'll add him to my list of scorers in both World Wars.

Have a good start into a pleasant new week,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Stanley Vincent has confirmed kills in both conflicts, though there are some from WWII which are not. I have never researched that, so not sure if this is substantiated or not.
Another both wars killer was Marcel Haeglen with a total of 24 IIRC.
Numerous pilots were veterans of both wars, though not scored nor not necessarily served in aviation. Eg. G/C Mumler, WWII ace, was in the army during WWI. Acdre Rayski flew ops in WWI, Polish-Bolshevik war (not sure Polish -Ukrainian war), and WWII, but never scored.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

The correct spelling is Marcel Claude Haegelen. The order of the given names is different from source to source but I agree with the tombstone. He has 22 kills in WW2 and 1 kill in WW1.
http://www.as14-18.net/Haegelen

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

It's the other way round
22 claims WW 1
1 claim WW 2
Stig

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

That's true.
Sorry for the typo.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

I have also seen 23 WWI and 1 WWII. I believe there is also one unconfirmed from WWII. There was a number of French WWI pilots still in service back in 1940.

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Good evening,

Haegelen has 22 confirmed and 2 unconfirmed in WW1 and 1 confirmed in WW2.

Can anybody tell me if his Sep/Oct 1918 kills were scored in a SPAD S.VII or a SPAD S.XIII ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Lindenberger's WW I claims update:
FAA 234 Observer
1 29 May 17 Spad Cerny

2 2 Oct 17 Spad Soupir (which is NW of Reims and ENE of Soissons

3 21 Oct 17 Spad Bravcourt-Freshes

Jasta 2 or Boelke pilot

4 31 may 18 Bre 14 Villers-Cotterets a day of heavy air combat

5 1 Jun 18 Bre 14 Priez a day of heavy air combat

6 18 Aug 18 Bre 14 Moulin-Touvent

7 20 Aug 18 AR 2 w Champs a day of heavy air combat

8. 31 Aug 18 RE 8 C2727 2lt GE Herring (P) POW & Cpt WG Shedel (O) POW 6 Sqn

9 3 Sep 18 BF combles 1805 a heavy air combat day

10 6 Sep 18 Camel D9484 Lt AH Hiscox KIA 208 Sqn

11 30 Oct 18 SE 5

12 1 Nov 18 SE 5 E5811 Lt H Wilcox KIA 32 Sqn

Re: Alfred Lindenberger - 28 September 1944
 

Hello James,

yes, Alfred Lindenber has the record for the longest period between the first and the last kill: 26 years (27 if gunner kills are counted). However, I don't know the dates for the first kills of Alfred Helm and Alfred Müller. Alfred Helm scored 3 in WW1 (?+?+1916) and 3 in WW2 (all 1942). Alfred Müller scored 3 in WW1 (?+1917+1917) and 3 in WW2 (all 1940).

Cheers,

Michael