Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Guys,

Is there a photo of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-5 in Japanese markings showing its tail completely?

I am wondering if the aircraft arrived there with the whole tail including rudder in RLM 76 or rudder could have been possibly RLM 04 / Yellow if the aircraft sent was not new one (it obviously had yellow lower cowling) or would there be any other reason to assume that the rudder was yellow...

Additionally on one of the three photos I know of the aircraft showing it from 10 o'clock there seems to be a "yellow" leading edge on the wing from root till pass outer MG. Considering that Japanese applied some of the stencils in Japanese - I wonder if they have done this too?

If you have any additional info (W Nr. and similar) please share.

Best,
Milos

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hi Milos,

to my very knowledge, there are no photos, like what you are asking for. I found the majority here.

A summery of published articles on that matter are here. Interessting might also be this. But so far -and to my limited knowledge- no details.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Thank you for all that information. Here is a review of a Hasegawa kit that might help a little.


http://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/bf-1...e-army-service




Ed

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hello Chris!

I can see your icon is still the same after all these years of my absence!
How you've been? These 7-8 years have brought quite a few changes into Luftwaffe circles when it comes to camouflage research... discoveries of quite a few new previously unseen photos and so on... and as I can see closure of LEMB, which saddens me a lot.
BTW - do you have an email of Peter D Evans?

Anyhow, back to topic:

I've been studying those photos available on the net out of which I have two printed in some of my books. It's such a pity that we don't have any photos showing aircraft's tail! There could easily be some Japanese markings there and we will not know until we see the photos published (if ever).
For time being I will leave my model's tail (1/48 scale) in RLM 76 with just few light mottles. Airframe was not heavily mottled (although it was quite stained) and as such I believe same thing should apply to the tail surfaces.

I strongly believe that leading edges of the wings were painted yellow on FW 190 just like they were on Bf 109... at least according to one of the photos available.

My model is almost done now... Will be adding the yellow on the wings and painting the Japanese markings (I've just cut the masks)

Best,
Milos

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Here is some additional information for researchers - hopefully authentic.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-J...item5b2801ab64





Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Thank you, Ed, much appreciated.

Reg your last comment, do you have doubts on the authenticity of these papers?

I would also have some doubts, but I cannot actually specify my doubts. This is more like a gutt feeling. It just appears to be too good to be true.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hi Milos,
it's already that long ago, 7-8 years? My god, I didn't realise that.
Well, truely a lot has happened.

LEMB might have been closed -as in there is no more activity in it- since Sept. 2014, but it is still accessable (only for former registered members). The founding members of Luftwaffe Research Group (quite some were noticeable former members of LEMB) have taken LEMB into LRG's custody and thus preserved it as a valuable treasure trove of knowledge for posterity. LEMB can still be and is being used as a research tool.

You might have noticed, that Peter D. Evans has turned his back on this field of former interesst to him.
I don't have Peter's email address, but I can ask for it. I'll come back to you on that via PM.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

This eBay document could be an elaborate fake or copy. But at least the information it contains passes some verification.
The blacked out W.Nr. of the Fw 190 should be 1087 as the seller lists the BMW 801 engine W.Nr. as 20239 in his description. See the attached document from the Fokkes & Koch files in the IWM.
I do wonder where the seller got it, he also lists a number of other Fw 190 documents on eBay.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hello Ed, Chris & Hans,

Thank you guys with all the pointers & discussions on this matter!

I have seen the "export" document and downloaded it myself few weeks ago when I first thought of working on this model in 1/48 scale.

Unfortunately, the WNr. is blocked out on all the documents on Ebay. So it's great to see the WNr. on the document you have posted Hans! I might even apply the WNr. on the model I make :)

I am unable to talk about document's authenticity. For me - based on low res images on ebay - it seems like real but could easily be very well done copy.

Off Topic:
Dear Chris,
Unfortunately, Yes! It's been since 2008-2009 that I have not been able to dedicate much time to my interest in aviation. I am now trying to concentrate on building a nice collection of 1/48 (with few 1/32) scale Fw 190s. Since I started, I am on 6th - 7th (9th in fact - when I have listed them now here)... most of which are still partially WIP:
- Yugoslav Air Force Fw 190 F-8 (95% done)
- Soviet Fw 190 A-4 (95% done)
- Japanese Fw 190 A-5 (75% done)
- Fw 190 A-8 Maj. Kurt Bühligen / JG 2
- Fw 190 A-8 "Red 3+-" “Kornjark" (85% done)
- Fw 190 A-3 "Black G-+-" Hptm. Wilhlm Gath / JG26 (50% - basic painting done)
- Fw 190 A-4 "Yellow 4 + I" Oblt. Siegfried Schnell / JG 2 (50% - basic painting done)
- Fw 190 D-9 "Red 18+~" (30-40% assembled only ready to paint)
- Fw 190 D-11 "White <61+" (30-40% assembled only - with few small corrections for not so perfect kit correcting some of the mistakes, ready to be painted)
Mostly kits are built out of box with just super minor corrections I can do fast... I enjoy it that way, so I can dedicate more time to camouflage :) (You know me)

Trying to catch up with the things I have missed... especially when it comes to Fw 190 research & Luftwffe Camouflage in general. Luckily enough, I have been buying most of the books that were published in the meantime. Now using time to cross reference those that I have on hand here in Shanghai, with more of them being brought back from Serbia with every trip there and every visit of the friends...

I will be bothering you guys more with many Fw 190 questions I have, so please stay tuned to give your opinion please!

Best,
Milos

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

The seller just responded to my question about provenance. FWIW.

They came form the estate of John Ide, who was a Lieutenant Commander
in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Branch of the Bureau of Aeronautics in
Washington. He was appointed as a Tactical Air Intelligence Officer in Europe
between 1943 and 1945. :)

How he specifically acquired them, I do not know, however. but as it was his
job to gather intel..I suspect these were collected from Focke-Wulf in 1945.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Biography of John Ide:
https://launiusr.wordpress.com/2016/...e-wwii-europe/

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Thank you for the bio. I won't bore anyone with the size and scope of intelligence gathering operations and personnel in the European Theater and the Pacific. I am not an expert in all German documents but if this is an original Focke-Wulf document, a few things to consider: A) It had to be cleared after reading and classified, B) The Germans and Japanese had a program called Yanagi where technology and goods were traded or bought by either side during the war. As far as I know, all of this was done using submarines. C) Tons of original German documents ended up in the United States. D) If this document was microfilmed and the former owner was allowed to keep it, I'd like to see the cover and any indication that it was cleared for release to this person.

I'd like to add that some German documents can be viewed by the public at archives or other designated institutions. The fact is, there are still a substantial number of German documents that remain classified to this day. Their location is not known. I have read about "private collections" but cannot verify this. Yes, original photos and documents still turn up and this may be one of them. I don't know.


Ed

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

information no wrk nr.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

and from

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hans and everyone else.

I am the owner (and seller) of those Fw190 documents. 100% they are original.

Mike

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hello everyone,

Amazing things here guys! It's great knowing that forum members are having such valuable documents on hand.

Snautzer - many thanks for sharing these scans. Based on both documents there is talk about 5 airframes that were purchased. Seems that only this one arrived there. Wondering if the airframe from Mike's document is the one that arrived to Japan for sure.

Also Mike - can you please confirm the above mentioned WNr.? Hope it doesn't work against your sale? Don't wanna spoil that... but would love to add that WNr to the model if it can be confirmed.

Best regards,
Milos

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hi
Several original docs I found dated 1/43 give the c/n for these as 1087-1090, which to me is 4 a/c only

Regards

Tony

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Forgot to say

1087 had BMW 801D engine c/n 20239

Tony

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Thank you, Snautzer. According to the bio: "He died at his Park Avenue home in New York City on Jan. 12, 1962, at age 69." I hope some expert can confirm that such a document could be declassified by that year or before.





Ed

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

That remains the question i think. 1 certain delivered, 2 remained and returned to Luftwaffe

.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

I would think there would be a stamp with "declassified on every page "see ig the pages i posted. This would be the document that would have gone through official channels. However i have many german manuals etc that never went though those channels and have no Allied marking what so ever.
So it is very well possible no stamps were printed on those documents just because they never were officially Allied.

Question remains (for me) if these are the documents for the Fw190 that went with the Japan export or the 2 that were left on the dock.

Nice little tid bit of information: The Japanese paid : 404300 Reichsmark for a A5 variant, the Turks paid 510.000 Reichsmark (per unit with spare engine per unit) for a series of 72 A3. Interestingly it seems these were called the Fw190Aa-3 ("a" stands for ausländisch or foreign)

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Indeed, 181086 and 181076 were used by 1./JG 26, lost in March 43, and 12./JG 2, lost in December 43

Regards
RolandF

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Snautzer,
Difference in price could be attributed to the fact that Japan was allied and Turkey was not. Also - extra engine adds cost too.

I was wondering & I think asking the same question above: is the aircraft in the document really the one that arrived to Japan?

Also was it sold New or 2nd Hand? If it was previously used - it could explain why many profile artists were putting Yellow rudder on their artworks. Further more, then there should be some obvious repainting of the fuselage - which in the three photos I have seen is not clearly visible.

Strange thing is that various sources point to: 3, 4 & 5 purchased airframes...

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Most sources -I know of- imply or suggest brand new, fresh from the factory. The ebay find would be supporting this theory.

I think, the truth is that 1 or 2 plane(-s) was/ were officialy acquired and delivered and everything beyond that might have been a plan, wish or idea only. In how far this really was the one (or one of two) Fw190A-5 delivered to Japan still needs to be verified. As said earlier, we cannot be/ are not sure of the authenticity of these documents.

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hi
A letter from Mitsubishi Shoji Kaisha dated 21/1/43 to Focke Wulf quoted the 4 c/n as a block 1087-90 so for me new build aircraft. My post before this one was a failed attempt to show the Mitsubishi doc

To answer Christian ,this Mitsubishi document and the Focke Wulf one added earlier are from original documents held at Duxford and were captured in Japan i.e Fokkes and Koch files therefore authentic.

Tony

Re: Japanese Fw 190 A-5
 

An interesting postscript to this story is published here on the Arawasi website. The picture shows the fuselage of a FW 190 found in a hangar at Tachikawa, Japan after the war. It was taken by a member of the US Navy 15th Naval Construction Battalion and published in the cruisebook of the unit.
No visible markings as far as I can determine.

Hans

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pUlpkcfFu...00/JFW190c.jpg

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Hi Hans. Interesting. Yes, the 190 and the wing is also there behind it.

SM

Re: Japanase Fw 190 A-5
 

Wow! Great image Hans!
it now confirms that for sure 2 Fw 190s made it to Japan. The image is of low res but I cannot see any markings on the wings in the background either.