Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Saw this on HyperScale forum. What do you think this says about the G-10s not being rebuilt from earlier models? I know this isn't proof in any way, just interested to see what the 109 experts think about it.

"Hi all,
Recently, an Erla Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490144 was recovered in Northern Germany. It was marked with a "Yellow 7" and had a yellow horizontal bar on the rear fuselage. One thing that surprised the recovery team is it had a DB 605 D motor not a AS engine. They are convinced the fuselage was originally a G-6. Several layers of camouflage were found, the first was black, the final color scheme was light green under sides with RLM 75/RLM 74 on top. At some time there was a yellow fuselage band. The fin an rudder were wooden and the stabilizer unit was metal. Some of the color was in remarkable condition. The wheels and tires were the standard G-6 660 X 160. The pilot apparently had bailed out. As yet they don't know the unit the a/c was from.
Cheers , Jerry" (Crandall)

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hmm..originally black camouflage and a G-6 fuselage? Sounds like this plane perhaps had originally been a G-6/AS or something of ENJGr/EJG 2, later modified to a G-10 and repainted..

Cheers,
Christian

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Thanks for the link Roland! So the place is Altenbücken, about halfway between Bremen and Hannover, possible date November 26th, 1944...

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Please not again the "rebuilt theory" ---the Erla factory had the order to use all the G-6/U2-tubes not used more in G-6 production because the production of this version was stopped. So this tubes weren't rebuilt because never were used before. And why the surprise because of the DB605D? This was the normal engine of the Erla G-10 from begin of delivery - the AS engine was an rare exception --- so the DB 605AS would be an surprise.

And ... the a/c was delivered on 30./31.10.1944 to Luftwaffe units. If the loss was on 26.11.1944 would be an use in a EJG, then an rebuilt from G-6/AS to a G-10 and a supply to a new unit (all in all 3 weeks) a very, very hard thing ;) ...

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hey, my "rebuilt" theory stemmed from the "black camo" remark in the original posting only. I'm innocent! :D

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hi,
Yes, I agree.
From the files of the Luftwaffe no G-10s at all were modified G-6s.
There has been a confusion in the past time because G-6 fuselages were used to produce G-10s. It's not surprising. Stocks of G-6 fuselages were not to be destroyed when it was decided to produce G-10s. Those fuselages used by Mtt-AG, WNF or Erla were brand new ones fitted with DB 605 D engines. By WNF the wheels and tyres were of 690x190 dimensions with large bulge on apper surface and by Mtt-AG who produced only 120 the wheels were 660x160 with the small bulges. Erla-Leipzig named their G-10s as "Bastard-Flugeuge" because they produced two distinct series of this plane. Planes of the WNr series 490xxx were the first to be delivered with WNr 490130 or 190135 at the end of September 1944. That should be the explanation for the presence of RLM 74 ans 75 colors on top. The green color on undersurfaces is probably an oxidized RLM 76. It's possible also that 490144 was used by several units before it crashed.
Concerning the engine of 490144 it's not a surprise because it must be kept in mind that all G-10s were fitted with DB 605 D engine when leaving the assembly line. During their life, when it occured that the original engine was out of service they can be refitted with DB 605 ASB/C by the Reparatur-Industrie such as the Erla-Antwerpen center. The Reparatur-Industrie received only DB 605 ASB/C engines. The engine producers repaired the DB 605 Ds which were then delivered to main airplane manufacturers that fit them to new airplanes. That was also the case for the Bf 109 K-4 but until today we have found no wrecks of a DB 605 ASB/C-equiped K-4...

JCM

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

This is not correct ... at least regarding Erla. The G-10 with DB 605AS from Erla got their engines in the factory in Leipzig (with an very high probability - 99 % I would say). Erla delivered an small number of G-14/AS but the delivery was stopped before the batch was completed. So they had some DB 605AS "in Reserve"... this is the solution for Erla "G-10/AS" ...

Incidentally ... the Erla-Antwerpen center was disintegrated on September 02, 1944, long before the first G-10 serial a/c's were delivered.

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

All I did was post the information that was forwarded to me. I didn't edit condone or criticize their remarks. Why don't you pass on your information to the recovery team, I'm sure they would be interested in your comments. After seeing color photos I can confirm the yellow number and RLM 75/ RLM74 on the fuselage.
Jerry

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hello everyone,

A very interesting topic, indeed. Has the recovery team documented the DB 605 D Motornummer?

Steve Sheflin

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hi Steve,
I'm sure they have the number but I don't as yet. I'll let you know if I can get it.
Jerry

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Jerry,

Thank you , Sir.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

The Erla-Leipzig archives are complete and we found no G-10/AS delivered to the Luftwaffe. 123 Bf 109 G-14/AS were produced among G-14s in the WNr batches 460330 to 460670 (50) and 461100 to 461999 (73). Maybe some G-10s had a DB 605 AS engine but they were officially designated G-10, not G-10/AS.

JCM

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

I know --- I was the "source" all of these informations (in 1991/92 - I'm not sure - I gave Mr. Bavarois and Mr. Prien first indications and worked together with Mr. D'Amico).

Unfortunately the archive isn't complete (for example in the 460xxx batch), many documents were lost during the first weeks after the end of the war (it were found roundabout 14 tons of documents by Americans). But the spring was cold and the wood rare ...

Of course you haven't found an "G-10/AS" because this designation doesn't exist and the factory the type of engine not registered in the accounts with the RLM. They sold the airframe. The complete designation was registered in other documents. By the way --- they sold 135 G-14/AS: 28 in August, 95 in September, 9 in October and 3 in November. Some Italian G-10 had indeed DB 605AS but ... you are right ... this were normal G-10 (that's the reason why I use the quotation marks).

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hi,
Thank you for completion of information.
More information : other G-10s, in this case WNF's production, could have been fitted with DB 605 AS engines.
Repairs carried out referring to the DB 605 AS stand out on a listing of flying hours of the planes of 2./NAGr 12, who, at an indeterminate date during the last weeks of the war, had seven reconnaissance Bf 109 G10/R2s. The working hours of the airframes and engines were recorded by the group’s technical officer, Gruppen TO Heino Emmerstorfer.
1 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770224 DB 605 DB 117-00520 : 38 h frame: 38 h
2 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770262 DB 605 DB 117-01048 : 15 h frame: 15 h
3 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770264 DB 605 ASM 117-07684 : 04 h frame: 02 h
4 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770294 DB 605 DB 117-01245 : 12 h frame: 12 h
5 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770349 DB 605 DB 117-00365 : 11 h frame: 11 h
6 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770350 DB 605 ASM 117-07819 : 04 h frame : 08 h
7 – Bf 109 G-10 WNr 770358 DB 605 DB 117-01932 : 09 h frame: 09 h
This list should need no explanation, definitely confirming, by the difference in working hours between the airframes and the DB 605AS engines mounted on them, that the Bf 109 G10/AS did not exist in a «factory version », that is to say named thus by the constructor.
Cheers,

JCM

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Ferdinand D'Amico and Gabriele Valentini used the description G-10/AS to describe particular aircraft which they discovered had been delivered to the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana. By the time I started working with them, they knew that this was not an official Bf 109 variant. Even so it remains a useful way of describing these hybrid machines.

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

I understand this choice, but it is dangerous for the historic truth to use inappropriate terms. It would be better to recognize that this arbitrary choice is source of errors.
JCM

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Just for info, by the time we started researching on the later variants of the Bf 109 G, the "G-10/AS" unofficial designation was used also by renowned researchers and historians like John Beaman and Jochen Prien, so, since the info on that topic were rather scarce at that time, it was used without implying that it was an official one.

By the time we published our last book on the ANR (2004), the matter had been quite disclosed and thanks to people like Rasmussen, the topic on the subject was dramatically updated, at the point that in the book we also devoted a double page section about the differences between G-14/AS, G-10 and "Erla" G-10.

Furthermore, by then in our works no "G-10/AS" designation was used anymore.

I think each one of us tries to improve, but it cannot be judged by older works, rather by the willingness to get better and more correct info as time passes, being keen to change, update and even reverse older info, as I guess any other researcher should do. Then interpretations still may differ, but luckily we have not the same brain...it would be boring.

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hello Mr. Mermet,

This is a most interesting discussion—especially your list of NAGr.12 Bf 109 G-10 Motornummern. I would like to make a few ancillary comments regarding the two listed DB 605 “ASM” power plants.

As I know you are aware, unlike DB 605 D’s, which were newly-built, DB 605 AS’s were modified from DB 605 A’s; the major change being the addition of the larger diameter DB 603 supercharger.

I have 52 x DB 605 AS’s in my database file. Of these, all but two, MNr. 002/07907 and 20616 (used for engine testing) were from the 007/xxxxx series (DB Motoren, Genshagen Kreis Tetlow production). No DB 605 D’s are found in this series.

31 of the 326 DB 605 D’s in my database file are from the 117/xxxxx series (also DB Motoren, Genshagen Kreis Tetlow production). No DB 605 AS’s are found in this series.

In light of the above, I think that your two listed DB 605 AS Motornummern: 117-07684 and 117-07819 may be in error and should instead be 007-07684 and 007-07819 respectively.

I look forward to correction and feedback on my thesis.

Respectfully,

Steve Sheflin

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Hello guys,

good old G-10 AS has caught us again ;-)

Some of us will remember the discussions we had more than 10 years ago and unfortunately our level of knowledge has not changed since then. There was no official Baureihe “Bf 109 G-10 AS”.

Nevertheless I have to support Ferdinandos and Jochens decision to describe AS-engined G-10s like “G-10 AS”. 25 years ago we did not have that many original documents, we can now lean on. And nobody had a clue about Erlas special engine fairing. What was available, was the Handbuch for Bf 109 G/AS, which said, that Bf 109 G-5, G-6 and G-14 could be equipped with the AS-engine and were to be called Bf 109 G-xx/AS after that. This handbook was printed in December 1944, but was based on the situation in August 1944 and so did not mention the Baureihe G-10. To describe G-10s with AS-engines like “G-10 AS” was not arbitrary, but the result of some thoughtfully educated guesswork, based on our knowledge in 1990 or so.

Since that time we gathered a lot of original documents on planning, production, supply and losses. AFAIK there is no mentioning of G-10s anywhere with only one exception. Thanks to Rasmussens essential research we can be sure, that Erla did not produce a single G-10 AS, even though there were G-10s equipped with AS-engines during the manufacturing process at Erla. There is no hint at MTT Regensburg or WNF building G-10 AS at all.

As for the G-10/R2 with AS-engines with 2/NAGr 12 Mermet has already noticed, that the flying times for engines and airframe are different, so the a/c most probably got their AS-engines not at WNF, but rather more at the Recce-Unit as a replacement.

Now the only known exception I know of:
NVM of III. /JG 300 do include four G-10 ASM in December 1944 and Jan. 1945! I don't think these were typos. The clerk at this Gruppe was rather accurate, meticulously reporting the full Baureihenbezeichnung for every loss, whether G-14AS, G-10, G-10 ASM or G-10/R6. As for G-10s this was:

24.12.1944 - 490299 - G-10 ASM
24.12.1944 - 490323 - G-10
31.12.1944 -491233 - G-10
31.12.1944 -491241 - G-10
1.1.1945 -490228 - G-10
14.1.1945 -490219 - G-10 ASM
14.1.1945 - 491194 - G-10 ASM
14.1.1945 - 490224 - G-10 ASM
14.1.1945 - 490316 - G-10
14.1.1945 - 490329 - G-10
14.1.1945 - 490186 - G-10
8.2.1945 - 490310 - G-10
9.2.1945 - 490286 - no type reported

All a/c with Werknummern 15x.xxx were reported like G-10/R6.

HTH

Carl

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

I am not that involved in Bf 109 issues, but would like to make a comment that applies across the board for Luftwaffe research. Some of the most important research documents are the RAF crash and capture reports. My opinion is that if one of these reports identified a specific sub-type, it has a very high probability of being correct, as the it appears the standard procedure was to record the W.Nr. and type from the Typenschild, then remove the plate and send it back along with the written report. The field people generally might have had very little knowledge of what a particular sub-type an example might be, they reported what was on the plate, and if they could not locate the plate, generally did not report that information. My opinion is use of Bf 109 G-10/AS designation possibly began with an RAF intelligence report, and if that is the case probably was correct in that sense.

At a more basic level, having paper documentation of a particular issue does not necessarily represent physical reality. Having been a member of a military organization and also a participant at many levels of engineering, manufacturing and production, the drawings , manuals, and most other paper documentation precede the device and what is recorded in the nature of performance, timing, location, etc. etc. often does not reflect what was actually there or what happened. Personally, I tend to believe hardware and photographs, but even these can misleading. To be a good historian, my opinion is one must have a strong sense of doubt and understand that taking a position that something is absolutely true or false can put one on a very slippery slope.

Best Regards,

ArtieBob

Re: Odd Bf 109 G-10 found.
 

Very interesting posts regarding the insertation of DB 605 AS's into standard G-10s. It almost proves the saying that "if you can wait long enough, anything is possible."

Reading Charles Bavarois and Artie Bob once again, I am reminded of a curious plan the Air Ministry advanced in December 1944, whereby some 540 Bf 109 G-14/AS's were to receive DB 605 D's between December 1944 and January 1945. Of these, it seems only 203 were delivered during December. Unfortunately, the Flugzeugweiterentwicklung Terminplan gave no further details. Thus, we do not know where these 203 hybrid G-14s were assembled or their distribution. Of course, this also begs the question as to what we should call these hybrids...perhaps "Bf 109 G-14/D" ?

Hal