Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Hello

These 13 kills are not mentioned in the Luftwaffe loss lists (Gen.Qu.6 Abt.)

These A/C are listed for that day

24.03.1945 III./J.G.11 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 WNr. 491475
24.03.1945 III./J.G.11 Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4 WNr. 33231
24.03.1945 IV./J.G.5 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-14 WNr. 770228
24.03.1945 IV./J.G.5 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-14 WNr. 781202
24.03.1945 I./J.G.52 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-14 WNr. 465753
24.03.1945 III./J.G.52 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 WNr. 613078
24.03.1945 III./J.G.52 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-14 WNr. 465314
24.03.1945 2./N.A.Gr.2 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10 WNr. 770246
24.03.1945 2./N.A.Gr.2 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 19996

Source: www.ahs.no/ and own Gen.Qu.6 Abt lists

Best
Olve Dybvig

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Hmm odd...

Books of the 359th FG by Jack H. Smith show a gun camera still from Lt. Kelly. It is difficult to tell, but the aircraft appears to be a Bf 109 G-10 (smooth gun fairings + fixed tail wheel + wooden tailfin). It has a dark coloured spinner and either no or a bright coloured RVT band. The aircraft number appears to be white. Camouflage is most likely green-grey (or two-tone grey but definitely contains RLM 75).

One of the Mustangs involved was damaged by a 20mm round.

Interestingly some of the pilots note that the crosses on the wings appeared to be shaped so they resemble a circle from a distance (on the guncam still they're standard white crosses on wing tops and fuselage).

In any case, thanks for looking :)

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Could it have been a training group with losses being put in another category?

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Also lost that day were 4 K-4s from JG 27 and 2 G-10s from JG 300.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I would say this is I./JG 27. They reported losses in combat near Störmede Airfield. Losses were reported as 4 KIA. Eyewitnesses reported the loss of 6 Bf 109 so we can assume 2 pilots bailed out. Just west of Störmede airfield lies the small village of Eikeloh.....

regards,

John

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Hi John.

Yes, I have them listed as 2 from 1 Staffel and 2 from 2 Staffel, although I have 1 pilot listed as MIA rather than KIA. Perhaps he was later confirmed as KIA?

Skyraider: Do you have a reference like an encounter report for this action?

John

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

John, you're a star! I was expecting "Eiklon" to be misspelt as there was no reference to it anywhere. I also couldn't find any airfield with a name close to it, so it makes sense it's a nearby town. It's easy to see how a handwritten Eikeloh could have been as Eiklon.
Do you happen to have any exact info on the losses, such as type, WerkeNr, markings and pilots involved? I have tried to decypher the blur on the guncam shot and it appears to both me and my wife as a white 4.

Not yet, but the 359th FG historian may be able to help. I'm trying to "reconstruct" several 359th FG encounters and she's been extremely helpful so far :)
It's interesting you have the losses listed a K-4's. The guncam still shows a clear tailwheel. Flaps are down and the 359th pilots reported the 109s as being in a landing pattern, so it's possible the gear was down. However judging from the background, I estimate the aircraft was flying at at least 5000 ft.


Many thanks guys!

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Since I keep referring to the guncam still, I thought I'd show you.

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...lly109kill.jpg

Please excuse the poor quality of the reproduction including the blob from the flash of my camera. My scanner doesn't work anymore...

Source: Mustangs & Unicorns, Jack H. Smith, ISBN 1-57510-029-0

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I hv 4 planes total loss for that day at or around Stormede, 1+2 JG27, + 1 for 3.JG27 damage unknown,+ 2 pilots wounded by strafing aircrafts, same day in combats, no place named ,11.jg27 lost 3 more, III.JG27 6, nd 4 concerning II.JG27
JG 300 seems to hv lost 18 crafts

rt

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I have the following losses;

1) Bf 109K-4, 332632, 2./JG 27, Uffz. Walter Neumann, born 28.9.1921, reported missing. Can't find him in the VDK-Datenbank and he is listed in the DRK-Bildlisten, therefore still MIA in 1950's and probably still is.

2) Bf 109K-4, 333909, 1./JG 27, Uffz. Erich Flickinger, born 23.2.1925,
KIA. Buried Ehrenfriedhof Geseke Block 8, Reihe 2, Grab 27.

3) Bf 109K-4, 332576, 1./JG 27, Uffz. Josef Bursch, born 21.8.1923,
KIA. Buried Ehrenfriedhof Geseke Block 8, Reihe 2, Grab 24. (VDK says birthyear is 1922)

4) Bf 109K-4, 331379, 2./JG 27, Uffz. Günter Hurler, born 27.12.1922,
KIA. Buried Ehrenfriedhof Geseke Block 8, Reihe 2, Grab 25. (VDK says first name is Gustav)

Unfortunately the loss report (NVM) does not list the Kennzeichen. The white number indicates an 1st Staffel a/c.

Hope this helps.

John.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

And before anybody shouts....who is in Grave 26.....???:

Stabsintendant Erich Kruse, born 30.3.1912. Stabsintendant of I./JG 27 and killed in strafing on 24.3.1945.

cheers,

John.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

According to Werner Girbig's book: Start im Morgengrau:
Over Störmede, at the time home base of I./JG 27, it was a battle with big number of Mustangs. Four Bf 109 from I./JG 27 and eight from III./JG 27 was lost (or as he write; Pilot lost). All Bf 109 K-4
No reference given

And, still cant find them im Gen.Qu.Abt 6 lists that I have
Anyone with the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen (NVM) for III./JG 27?

Best
Olve Dybvig

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I second John Manrho in that it may have been I./JG 27, but III./JG 27 can’t be ruled out without further examination.

According to Werner Girbig in “Start im Morgengrauen”, I./JG 27 lost 7 pilots (4 KIA and 3 WIA), while III./JG 27 lost 9 pilots (8 KIA and 1 WIA), all in the Osnabrück, Teutoburger Wald and Störmede area. With 13 pilots lost (not taking into account the three wounded on the ground), I. and III./JG 27 may well have lost something like 20 aircraft. Since the 359th FG claimed “only” 13 aircraft destroyed, it is clear that another US fighter unit engaged JG 27 that day.

This fighter unit was without doubt the 357th Fighter Group, which claimed 16 Me 109s destroyed SW, W and N of Gütersloh, that is some 30 km North from Störmede.

To determine which fighter group engaged which JG 27 Gruppe, times of combat must be taken into account. The 357th FG engaged first, from 12:10 to 13:00, then the 359th clashed over Störmede/Eikeloh from 13:00 to 13:20.

Unfortunately, I don’t have the Prien’s books with me, but they may contain more precise data about the losses of both German units, as well as information about the time of combat.

Now, RT, JG 300 was definitely not involved in this combat. It lost at least six Bf 109s and many more Fw 190s, but later in the day in the Göttingen area. This is another story, told in a recent book (for the time being available in French only).

Richard Goyat

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Many thanks for the help! Very interesting!

I suppose if III/JG 27 was involved too, then the aircraft in the guncam still could be one of 9/JG 27 as well?

Also, being K-4 models (with retractable tail wheel) it means the aircraft were having their gear down. This seems a bit odd for the altitude at which the guncam shot seems to have been taken.


In any case I'm impressed how far we've come in a matter of hours! :)

Again, thanks very much for your help.


According to the 359th FG records, twenty 369th FS Mustangs were involved (as 24 took off and 4 aborted).

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I've tried finding Störmede airfield... or what's left of it after 60+ years. It should be somewhere south of the town (the map is 7x7 km).

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com.../stoermede.jpg

The area on the right looks interesting... that's where the rail line is too (Störmede airfield had a rail connection).

Related links:
http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/i...0&t=pan&OL=Off
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.c...=9&scale=50000
http://www.geseke.de/stadtinfos/gesc...p_auto_350.php

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

JG300 Losses just given, because one ask for,the book you speak about is publicised/ in english/ at Schmidt's site is it avalaible by now ? is the english edition more complete than the french one??

you speak about 3 wounded, I hv Kaspar +König, the third one is Massopust ???seems to hv been wounded while flying /3.JG27/

John, just a confirmation, stabsintendent not flying pers. ???

III.JG27, no detail of the place just "LFK", all K-4, 8 total loss /at least 3 of 11.jg27/+ 1, % unkown, 8 T + 1 wounded.

RT
Remi Tracanelli

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Just as a side note, I just noticed that in Tony Wood's Luftwaffe claims list, FhjFw Walter Arnold of 9/JG 27 claims a Mustang destroyed. Unfortunately the time isn't known. Could he have claimed the one 359th FG Mustang that got merely damaged or was one of the 357th FG Mustangs lost in the earlier battle? I didn't find an MACR for the 357th for that date.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Lw.Kdo. West's evening report supplement for 24 March says:

III./JG 27: 18 Bf 109 from 1210-1230 fighter sweep in Bocholt area. Air combat with 20 Mustangs. Successes: 2 Mustangs definitely, and 1 probably shot down. Casualties: 7 killed, 2 missing, 2 wounded; 11 aircraft lost, 2 missing, 4 damaged.

(Source: translation in National Archives AIR20/7891)

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Thanks Nick!
This must have been from the clash with the 357th FG as the 359th didn't enter the scene until 1 PM.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

OK guys, a follow up....

1) In Prien's book on I./JG 27 an eyewitness is quoted who was at Störmede. It was a member of III./NJG 1 which was based at Störmede too. He said it was a combat between 18 Mustangs and 12 Bf 109's from I./JG 27 of which 6 where shot down. He also said there was one P-51 loss. The numbers match the number of 359th FG Mustangs very well.

2) RT, Stabsintendant is indeed ground crew. In fact he is in charge of administrative and personnel duties. Rank can be compared with Hauptmann.

3) Skyraider, The airfield was due south of Störmede. If you look at the picture, pinpoint Störmede and you go directly south you end up with a little square formed forest. This was the barracks area. The airfield was just north of it. Aircraft were in hiding along the forest edge going southwest from the little square. In Dierich's book you can find a map of the airfield. Perhaps somebody can make a scan and put it here?

4) III./JG 27 was stationed at Gütersloh and lost at least 8 KIA:

Lt.Nikolaus Bauer, born 25.3.24, Buried Gütersloh, Gr. 218
Lt. Horst Kizina, born 8.10.23, Gr. 221
Oblt. Dietrich Sponnagel, born 27.4.20, Gr. 220
Fj.Fw. Werner Geserich, born 7.9.22, Gr. 222
Uffz. Karl Jehle, born 16.2.21, Gr. 219
Uffz. Werner Piesker, born 4.11.19, Gr. 225
Uffz. Heinz Rösch, born ??? (couldn't find him most likely in Gr.224....)
Fw. Heinz Schettler, born 18.1.22, Gr. 223.

Please note that all were buried at Gütersloh, strong indication that they were killed in that area. 357th FG claims their Bf 109's as "West of Gütersloh". I would say 99,9% sure that this was III./JG 27.

No losses for the 357th FG, only Otto Jenkins killed when he was killed at Leiston doing aerobatics at low level to celebrate his last mission.

In general I would say you have to compare all losses of the Lw and claims of the 8th, 9th and 2nd TAF to draw conclusions, but this seems to me very straightforward....

OK, enjoyed this, but now back to my own research...

cheers,

John.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

That means nothing. The 109K had problems in retracting its tailwheel, so in many cases they were just locked down.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Many thanks John!

I've made a close-up of the airfield area, using Google Eart:

>snip!<

Also using Google Earth I tried to find out what the guncam still is showing. It's extremely hard to tell, but it could well be showing the town of Störmede in the bottom-right corner, with the P-51 heading south/south-west.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Interesting, I didn't know.
Wouldn't we see wheeldoors then I wonder now? Or I guess at this resolution it's impossible to tell. It still appears a bit like a short G-10 tailwheel though. Perhaps this plane wasn't shot down (JG 27 used the G-10 too, I believe, though in very limited numbers).

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Skyraider, you picked the wrong square forest......move 2 as much further south where there is a bigger square forest.....and if somebody could scan it from Dierich's book...... the area is still the same. Barracks are, ammo depot, perimeter and railway course can stil be clearly seen when magnified in Google Earth....

cheers,

John.

P.s. Gütersloh of course is still a UK Base (or was...)

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Whoops my bad :) Yes that makes more sense now - at least... I hope I got it right this time!!!

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com..._Stoermede.jpg

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I hope these drawings will show you how the tailwheel actuation works. So, you can manually close the tailwheel doors if you have locked the tailwheel down. The drawings are from "Messerschmitt Bf 109K" by Janda and Poruba.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Thanks George!

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Ok, some artwork of mine......

First, green area is landing ground. Red square is barracks area. Blue line is aircraft dispersal. North of airfield in orange is ammunition storage and railway line is in purple.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

great teamwork guys

A good proof of the value of this board

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig
www.luftwaffe.no

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Fantastic! Many thanks :)

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Please notice the book about the "Airfield of Störmede", which is available by ebay.

In fact "Eiklon" is a little village in the west of the airdrome. Often the german fighters started from Störmede in this direction.

In "Fliegerhorst Störmede" you will find a detailed report of this day, based on alliied and german sources.

Perhaps you know, that one german pilot ist MIA since March 24th, 1945.

Greetings

Helmut

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Thanks for the tip, Helmut. Looks like a really interesting book, although I am unable to buy it at this moment. I am seriously short of shelf space and having just purchased another dozen books last month, I'm worried my wife might kick me out if I get another 300+ page book! :D :D :D

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 was flown by Fahnenjunker-Feldwebel Werner Geserich. In an air raid with American escort fighters over the City of Bielefeld his machine was badly damaged.

Fhj-Fw Geserich had to land between the farm Niemann and the border to the Municipality of Steinhagen on an arable land, in the district of Ummeln, City of Bielefeld. He left the damaged plane and tried to get to the nearby Hagen (a small woodland in German language) on the "Maschweg" to rescue of the American fighter, but was killed on the way there by cannon fire.

An eyewitness who lived nearby kept this event in her diary. She went to the dead man and found that he came from the vicinity of the City of Potsdam.

https://www.airwarhistory.com/ummeln

The crash site is close to where I live.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Thank you for your very interesting reply! With "The Messerschmitt Bf 109" do you mean the exact one from the gun camera still?

I noted the images have long gone since I originally started this post, but I still have a copy of some of them.

Regarding the map, as John Manrho said: "First, green area is landing ground. Red square is barracks area. Blue line is aircraft dispersal. North of airfield in orange is ammunition storage and railway line is in purple."

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I can not say whether the camera shows the shot down of the fighter of Geserich.

The Bf 109 K-4 of Geserich, III. Gruppe 11. Staffel/JG 27, was not shot down on or near the airport Gütersloh respectively Störmede!

Fhj-Fw Werner Geserich was one of 8 losses of III./JG 27 on that day in the Gütersloh area.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

Thanks for clarifying, as I wasn't sure where to place his loss in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Bf 109 massacre of 24 March 1945 (359th FG)
 

I am still looking for the "Werknummer" and "Kennzeichen" of the Bf 109 K-4 of Fhj-Fw Werner Geserich.