Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Dear all,

What is the correct German term: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer? Werke and Werk in the singular seem to be used in many published works, but which one is strictly correct?

Cheers and thanks, Theo

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Werk is the singular form. So a factory number is a Werk Nummer (plural = Werk Nummern).

Werke is the the plural, so Werke Nummer (= "factories number") makes no sense to me (unless a native German speaker knows better!).

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Hallo Theo,

Werk Nummer (W.Nr.) is correct.

Rgds,
Kaczmarek

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

To say it easy:

You say Werknummer, if you´re talking about fabrication.
You say Werkenummer, if you´re talking about the works of famous composers, writers or other artists.

Now you know that it sounds rather funny for a german, if he´s reading about Werkenummern(pl.) in this forum.

Werk is the equivalent of "works" which is used only in plural in English
Werke is the German plural of Werk, but is not relevant in this context.

The problem for foreign speakers is the double meaning of Werk, which designates not only the production site but also the product of labour in any case.

Hope this helps.

Regards
RolandF

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Thank Roland. "Works" in English is deceptive, it may end with an "s" but it's used as a singular noun as well as a plural. A steelworks is one factory for example but you could also have two steelworks.

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

I have to disagree ... of course it's relevant ... for example: VW-Werke, Bayer-Werke and so on ... if you are speaking about some more locations of fabrication ... (as an German native)

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Thanks a lot for clarifying this matter chaps -it all makes sense to me now!

Cheers, Theo

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

.. and an additional question; which one is strictly correct the best abbreviation -'W. Nr.' or 'Wrk. Nr.'?

Cheers, Theo

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

W.Nr. (with no space) for me but others will disagree, and Luftwaffe documents aren't exactly consistent either. Much more important, I think, to be consistent in using whichever version you choose.

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Werk Nr.

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Please comment also on how 'Engine Number' is written in German. Steve Sheflin keeps a great database of those serials.

Thanks

Tony

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Sorry folks, but you all got it wrong:
The singular form is either "Werknummer" or "Werk-Nummer" (the latter one is a rather outdated variant). Plural would be "Werknummern" or "Werk-Nummern"
In German language, if you combine two words you either put them directly together without any gap or you use a hyphen. Something like "Werk Nummer" or "Werk Nr." is always incorrect.

"Engine number" would be Motornummer or Motor-Nummer.

Cheers,
Christian

EDIT: Just saw that Roland did got it right - sorry Roland! :D

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

But isn't it possible to use two nouns together without automatically combining them into a compound?

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

No, not really. At least I can't think of any example at the moment. In fact, the English habit of combining two nouns into one without any markers can be confusing to a German reader from time to time :)

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Theo,

In an original factory document of Fieseler I have found the following:
- Werk-Nr.
- Werk.Nr.
- Werk.-Nr.
- Werk Nr.
- W.-Nr.
- Werk Nr
- Werk-Nummer
- W.Nr.
They were all used in one document.

Jaap

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Proof once more that people are sloppy. In German documents you can also find "Bf109", "Me 109", "Me-109" and so on, even though "Bf 109" is the correct designation.
In fact, there is no single correct abbreviation for "Werknummer". People could use whatever variant they liked..

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

I agree - the issue for me and I am certain for other researchers is not whether the correct spelling or abbreviation is used. But that the correct W/Nr. (which is my abbreviation) is written - typed - applied - painted, to either documents, Flugbuchs or to the aircraft themselves (ie photos). But we all know that mistakes were made (as then under stress or boredom during wartime or today with re-copying data. It is human nature.
Very frustrating and confusing but sometimes you get lucky with duplications and the correct W/Nr. can be corrected from a 2nd source. Such is the researcher's lot you either accept it or you go crazy. The same applies to all those incorrect abbreviations!

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Thanks for all your replies chaps, this develops into an interesting thread!

Cheers, Theo

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

As you all know - Germans love to create word behemoths like Donaudampfschiffahrtskapitänswitwe or similar. To make it more readable, oftenly hyphens are used like Donaudampfschiffahrts-Kapitänswitwe or Donau-Dampfschiffahrts-Kapitänswitwe. Both versions are correct.
Jaaps abbreviations are correct, too. With the exeption of #3, #4 and #6.
They derive from two word variations:
Werknummer and
Werk-Nummer
Both are correct because of the above-mentioned reasons.
So it depends on how much time and space you have to spend if you write huge lists or use it only for a single time.
Personally I´d prefer Werk-Nr. or W.Nr. In German the dot always significates the use of an abbreviation.

But don´t use Werkenummer or similar ;-)

Regards
RolandF

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Roland, you forgot: Since the orthographic reform of 2006 we use three "f" in Dampschifffahrt ;)

Re: Werk Nummer or Werke Nummer?
 

Ssssshhhhh - don´t tell! Otherwise our foreign friends will commit Seppuko because of the German grammar and orthography ;-)