Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

(Posted on behalf of Jochen Prien)

Gentlemen,

attached please find a photo showing two pilots taken in the summer of 1944 in France; may be these have been subject of another thread somewhere else before, yet I still try to establish their identity. The photo is part of a series of PK-photos taken in France by a PK-photographer and are now held by the B.A. Several photos from this series showing a Bf109G-6/AS and a Bf109G-6/Bf109G-14 have been published many times over. But as far as I know they have so far eluded positive identification.

We can see a Leutnant wearing a German Cross in Gold and an Oberfeldwebel decorated with an Iron Cross 1st Class. Does anybody know who these two pilots are ? I would be very grateful if their identity could be ascertained.

Kind regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

I do not claim to have the solution but the vegetation in the photo could already clarify things. Would it be possible to see the pictures of the series where the aircraft appear? I do not doubt that many people have seen them without finding a solution but I have a doubt to clarify.

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Little titbit: left pilot is married, picture is taken 18:55

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

iii/JG3. See pages 157 and 159 of Jean-Bernard Frappe's La Luftwaffe face au debarquement allie. Our married dude shows up.

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Hello all,

Is there a possibility the tall thin DKiG pilot is Lt Wolf-Dietrich Steibler of JG 52 and I./JG 3?

Russell

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Hello Snautzer,
the pilot is wearing his ring on the left hand. That means often, in Germany, that he is, in time, engaged with his girl.
Very small help for you and Nick I know.
Best greetings
Manfred

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

The one on the left looks a bit like Heinrich Bartels.
His right eyebrow is a bit higher than the one on the left.
His mouth and chin show similarities to other Bartels pictures and in some pictures his pose is the same... There is a Bartels picture in Italy in which you can even see a ring on the same finger mentioned earlier in this thread... But I'm not sure it's him...
Maybe someone else here can shed a light on this...
With kind regards,
Piet

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

I also believe this is III./JG 3.....somehow I saw this guy before but not sure where it was......

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Maybe far fetched, but could the one on the right be Joachim Müncheberg..?
There is a bit of a resemblance when you compare the chin and the teeth, e.g. ...
With kind regards,
Piet

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Gentlemen,

many thanks for your input although I'm afraid that so far we haven't really moved forward. I have of course seen some of the photos in Jean-Bernard Frappé's publication and noticed that he presented them within his chapter on III./JG 3. Yet for me these photos have nothing to do with that Gruppe - neither the Bf109G-6/AS would match that unit nor any of the other Bf109s shown, none of which shows the black Gruppe bar, the Geschwader badge or any other marking that would hint at III./JG3.

The Leutnant is definitely not Heinrich Bartels who was never commssioned and had been wearing the KC since November 1942. I think we may rule out Müncheberg as well. And it's not Stiebler either if you tak a close look.

I still cannot believe, that it should not be possible to identify at least the Leutnant based on his decoration.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Jochen,

Ok, I also feel we must be able to establish who this is. Do we know for sure if this is a JG pilot or come other units also in play?

Regards,

John

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Never knew that , thank you

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

The photos of the Bf109 G-6/AS that has been published many times is that the Black 14 of 8/JG1 ? Both men in the photo have their wrist compass on their belts often many other photos show them on the life jacket , any practical reason for being on the belt.

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

After looking at the photos in Frappe's volume, they look very similar to the I./JG 5 photos.

Don

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Okay, we rule out Bartels and Müncheberg - but is it 100% sure these pictures you are referring to (which I didn't know, but which can be found at FalkeEins's blog) are from the very same visit of the photographer in question to France..?
I don't recognize the pilot sitting in the Bf 109 as the pilot in the left hand of the photographs mentioned at the beginning of this thread... It might be him - but I can't see this...
The airfield in question does look a bit like Saint-Omer / Clairmarais which I visited this summer, but even that is a hunch based on nothing much, I'm afraid...
With kind regards,
Piet

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Surely not! First, Joachim Muncheberg was killed in action in April 1943, so he would have been dead by then. Second, he was blond and much more handsome than the guy in the photo.

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Gentlemen,

although it will bring us no closer to the solution of this thread's issue, the above statment needs clarification - in Germany the wedding ring is usually worn on the right hand ring finger by Protestants, whereas Catholics usually wear it on the left hand ring finger. Protestants in the past often wore their (future) wedding ring on the left hand ring finger during the time between engagement and marriage. Therefore our Leutnant in question may have been a married Catholic or an engaged Protestant.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Mr. Prien

The discussion of the place of a wedding/engagement ring of a German pilot is fruitless on my opinion.

Me, a native German (catholic) was engaged with an American girl and wore my ring then lefthand. After wedding, I changed it righthand. After a week, I rechanged it back lefthand since it is much more comfortable in working for a complete right-hander like me.

Concerning your post, I asked my mother (87 years) and she told me, that in our catholic area (Rhineland) the married couples wore their wedding rings lefthand usually.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Dear Horst Weber,

The discussion of the place of a wedding/engagement ring of a German pilot is fruitless on my opinion.

... I think that is what I wanted to express with my post.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Dear Jochen,

To my knowledge, many of the Bf 109 G-8 shown in that Bundesarchiv series like Bild 101l-496-3477-24, taken by PK Engelmann at Sours near Chartres in July 1944, did belong to 3./NAGr. 14 which operated under the command of Stab NAGr. 13.

Could thus those pilots be from NAGr 14 ?

Cheers
Marc

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

I don't have the full pilots list but it would be interesting to look after the roster of 5(F)/123 (august) / Sonder Staffel Kaatsch (later).

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

In the ranks of 3./NAGr 14 there were at least two DKiG recipients.

Oblt. Hans-Heinrich Spiess
Oblt. Andreas Michalec

The first one does not seem to fit as he was reported MIA and his picture in de DRK-Vermisstenbänder does not look like our guy. Who has a picture of Oblt. Andreas Michalec?

It is a long shot but who knows....

John

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

On the FalkEins site there is a photo of the same Ltn. on his left arm below the shoulder tabs there appears to be some sort of symbol possibly a wolf's head. If this is so and not my imagination or a trick of the light would this offer any clue as to his unit.

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

His name is Lt. Hans-Ulrich Jung, at the time of his dead (01-01-1945) he was the Staffelkapitän of 10./JG3.

Kind regards, Thomas

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Are you really sure? I will need to check my old files but I would like to know your source...

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Dear all,

Thomas H is right, the Leutnant in question is Hans-Ulrich Jung of 10./JG3. His flight log along with several other items and some photos from the same PK series have been auctioned a short while ago, leaving no doubt about his identity.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Pfff.... I must be getting old....all the time I had prints and a page of his logbook in my files.....would love to see a copy of his complete logbook....

Anyhow...looked at my notes and wonder if the Lt. Jung in the pictures on page 401 of Jochen's III./JG 3 volume are indeed the same guy. There is some resemblance but.....

Cheers,

John

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

As a follow-up, there is currently another picture of Hans-Ulrich Jung seated in the cockpit of his Bf 109 G-6/AS being auctioned currently on eBay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Flu...IAAOSwfa9ZuX7i

and another one smiling:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Flu...MAAOSwXvNZuYCY

Cheers
Marc

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

And another one: https://m.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Flug...%257Ciid%253A9

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

Thanks Thomas!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Identification of two pilots, France, Summer 1944
 

See III./JG3 by Prien & Rodeike, page 401 (as indicated by John Manrho), should be Oblt. Graf von Treuberg. (providing I understood "als vierten von links")

Tschüss, Franck.