Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Yesterday I spoke to a veteran Mustang pilot who described to me a Bf 109 he shot down.
Firstly he mentioned it fired at him from the wings (he saw the smoke). Thus it must have had gunpods.
Secondly he said it didn't have a "blown" canopy but a "birdcage" canopy - i.e. the older style canopy (not the Erla/Galland Haube)
Lastly he said it was all "charcoal brown" without any "squiggles". I guess with squiggles he meant the mottling on the side. To me this sound like the late-war RLM 81/83 brown/dark green camouflage that extended down the sides, without mottle.

My questions is, has anybody ever come accross a Bf 109 in RLM 81/83 that still had the old-style canopy and gunpods?

I still have to get confirmation of the exact date of the encounter, but it was sometime during the last winter of the war.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

In a word, no; at least I have not. Of course, Herr Doktor Prien may yet surprise us in his series. There is a shot of a crash-landed G-10 in his Schieffer 109 book. You can see the front part of the a/c with the wing gun pods, but not much else. No markings, etc.

It has been said here before, and is not meant to be disprectful, but beware of what WWII veterans say about aircraft details. The crewchief of the well-known P-51D, Millie G, insisted it was painted red over natural metal. Turned out it was olive drab or RAF dark green. Steve Ritchie was absolutely adament that the F-4E he flew on two of his MiG kills had a shark's mouth on the nose. It did not and this was only 4 months after the event! Not 60 years. Memories can be very tricky when you are concentrating on killing or being killed.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

Yes, an eye witness account can contain many errors, but OTOH when the senses are sharpened, there is room to remember minute details. Perhaps the pilot in question may be excused about the canopy, but noticing (cannon) fire is a different matter - this is the sharp end of stick so to speak.

Point is that little can be said with getting more details like location and date.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Not so fast. Of course there were 109s in the camouflage colors you mentioned. One is shown on page 43 of the old Monogram painting guide..a color photo of what the authors say is a Bf 109 G-6...and it has that old canopy and a three digit number [479] along the side in what looks like maroon edged in white. Can't say about any special armament on this one.

Hal

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Thanks for the replies, guys!

To make sure, I showed the veteran a picture of both types of canopy and he basically said it could just as well have been the other one. He saw only one piece flying away when the pilot jettisoned the canopy, so I think we can rule out any "anomalies" - the target had an Erla Haube afterall. Also he mentioned he was pretty sure there was no aerial.

The date was 9 February 1945, around noon, near Magdeburg, heading south towards Leipzig. Scenery was forest and farmland - rural.

Is it safe to say he was battling a K-4? Or did G-10/14s also get equipped with gunpods? I don't think I've ever seen any pictures of late-war 109s with gunpods, but I do know JG 26 extensively used them on their K-4s (20 mm gondolas to be precise) but not on their G-10s.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Well, let’s see: First, there’s no documented evidence that the K-4 ever flew with wing gun pods. The K-6 was supposed to have built-in wing guns (not pods), but there’s no evidence they flew operationally.

Skyraider: As for JG 26 what evidence do you have they flew with the K-4 with gunpods in February 1945? III./JG 26 flew K-4s in Dec. ’44 to mid-January ’45, but then in mid-January reequipped with the D-9. That means that all JG 26 units flew the D-9 in mid-Jan ’45 onward. If there were any K-4s in JG 26 from mid-January ’45 onward, they did not lose any—something hard to believe. The last K-4 loss for III./JG 26 (the only 109-equipped JG 26 unit at this point) is 14-Jan-45. In fact, their losses on 9-Feb-45 are none, either 109s or 190s. The first III./JG 26 loss (the previously 109 equipped unit) is 28-Jan-45 indicating this previously 109 unit was now operational with the D-9. While our records for late 1944 and 1945 are not complete, they are not THAT inaccurate.

As for the color photo on page 43 of Monogram’s C &M classic, this is not totally reliable. The KZ of this wreck were likely red, as stated, but they are very dark red/brown in the photo, indicating the colors in the photo might be off. Ergo, there’s brownish looking stuff in the C & M pattern where there really not might be any. WWII color photos, reproduced now are notoriously fickle. You just cannot rely on them for accuracy, especially in subtle browns, greens or grays. Some are accurate, most are not.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

You´re too fast for my reply, John...:D
@Skyraider: What are your sources about the "...extensivley..." using of gondola weapons on the K-4? O.K., even the late war versions of the Bf 109 could be equipped with gunpods, but I´ve never seen any picture of Messerschmitts with this Rüstsatz during the last months of WW 2...
Regards, Winter

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

And what about the so called G-16?

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hello Yves,
I´ve got no sources about really existing G-16...

Regards, Heuser

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

John, I never said JG 26 used K-4s in February 1945 :) I merely gave them as an example of gunpod use on the K-4. I am well aware the whole of JG 26 was flying Doras by then and therefore the 109 we're looking for can't be a JG 26 example. The information about the gunpods I got from Donald Caldwell's books. The introduction of the K-4 is described (Nov. '44). Let me quote directly from the book:
I've never heard of gunpod use on the G-10/14 and I don't think any G-6 was ever painted in brown/green camo.
But I have never seen gunpod on any late war 109s myself...

Heuser, III/JG 26 used their K-4s quite a lot and if they all have gunpods that means they must have been used extensively.
The books I refer to are this one (p.292) and this one (p.379).


I had never heard of the K-6 variant with built-in guns. The veteran described smoke coming out of the wings when the 109 fired directly at him (and thus missed as the 109 pilot didn't use enough deflection). He didn't mention gunpods and when I asked about it he merely said the smoke was going over the wings. I'll show him a picture of the gunpods and see what he says.
I'm aware memory can be flakey after 60+ years, but he is 100% sure the 109 fired from its wings as he could see the gun smoke. One would definitely remember being shot at, so we can safely assume it had wing guns.


I really appreciate your help, guys, and hopefully we can find out what unit the 109 belonged to.

The USAAF unit involved was the 357th FS/355th FG by the way.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

For what it's worth, I found the following quote in Monogram's Close-Up book on the Bf 109 K:
In more than one way it suggests K-6s were operational. I will contact the author and ask about his source.




Also, I came across this picture in a Polish book about Bodenplatte. According to the caption it shows a G-10 of I/JG 3. Now I don't know how they can tell that from the picture, but it does seem to have the enlarged air intake of the later 109s. The snow would suggest Dec '44/Jan '45 and the wooden tail on the 109 in the background supports this time frame. And, the reason for me posting it, it has wing gunpods.

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...G-10_I_JG3.jpg

Also... on the right wing just inside of the gunpod... could that be a wheel door?
It also appears to have an aerial behind the cockpit though...




I found the following 109 G/K operators after extensive digging on www.ww2.dk and checked their airbases compared to the Magdeburg/Leipzig area.

III/JG 1 - Stolp-Reitz - not near
I/JG 3 - Stettin-Altdamm - not near
II/JG 3 - Alperstedt - possible
III/JG 3 - Stettin-Altdamm - not near
I/JG 4 - Guben - not near
III/JG 4 - Drewitz - which one? there is a Drewitz very near Magdeburg
IV/JG 4 - Drewitz - which one? there is a Drewitz very near Magdeburg
II/JG 5 - Herdla - near
III/JG 5 - Gossen/Herdla - near
III/JG 6 - Sorau - not near
II/JG 11 - Strausberg - not near
I/JG 27 - Rheine - not near
II/JG 27 - Rheine-Hopsten - not near
III/JG 27 - Hesepe - not near
IV/JG 27 - Achmer - not near
I/JG 51 - Danzig-Langfuhr - not near
II/JG 51 - Veszprem/Raab - not near
III/JG 51 - Insterburg - not near
IV/JG 51 - Danzig-Langfuhr - not near
I/JG 52 - Breslau-Schöngarten - not near
II/JG 52 - Veszprem - not near
III/JG 52 - Weidenguth - ? (can't find)
I/JG 53 - Veszprem - not near
II/JG 53 - Malmsheim/Huchenfeld - not near
III/JG 53 - Kirrlach - not near
I/JG 300 - Borkheide - not near
III/JG 300 - Jüterbog-Waldlager - possible
IV/JG 300 - Reinsdorf (near Berlin) - not near
IV/JG 301 - Gardelegen - possible

I/NJG 11 - Echterdingen - not near
II/NJG 11 - Jüterbog-Waldlager - possible but not likely, although 5/NJG 11 was based at Köthen and thus near
III/NJG 11 - Bonn-Hangelar - not near


Given the dark colour of the 109 ("charcoal brown") it is perhaps possible that it was a machine of 5/NJG 11? Are any daytime losses known for this unit on 9 February 1945?

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

The combat in which the 355th FG, the 479th FG and the 2nd Scouting Force were involved on 9 February 1945 in the Magdeburg area was against JG 300 (I., II. and III. Gruppen) and JG 301 (at least its II. Gruppe).

While II./JG 300 and II./JG 301 were equipped with Fw 190s (including some Fw 190 D-9s for II./JG 301), I. and III./JG 300 operated various version of Bf 109. It appears however that on this date, most — if not all — Bf 109s lost by JG 300 were G-10 and G-10/R6 versions. Until now, we haven’t seen a single JG 300 Messerschmitt of late 1944 and 1945 equipped with underwing gun pods.

Richard Goyat

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Many thanks Richard! Do you have any details about the Bf 109 G-10/R6 losses? The R6 Rüstsatz had the twin 20mm gunpods.

The attack was executed by a single Me 109 and seems to have been an isolated incident from any bigger battles. The 109 came from a cloudbank to the east or south-east of the Mustangs' flightpath (heading south). The pilot of the 109 was KIA. He tried to bail out but was possibly hit by .50 cal fire and never managed. The 109 went into a vertical dive and crashed into the ground.
The veteran also mentioned that the pilot seemed confused what to do and on the initial attack didn't keep enough deflection. It's likely the pilot was rather new (thus lower rank?).

[edit]
I just found this: http://www.jg300.de/data/1945.php
Do you have any additions to information mentioned there, especially with regards to the R6 versions and possible time (around noon) and pilot's faith (KIA)?
[/edit]

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

I just returned from a research trip to DC. There were several items located relating to Bf 109 subtype production. There are detailed breakdowns for subtypes through March 1945. No K-6s, however, Neubau G-6s were still coming off the line as late as February 1945. The last dated document from the GAF QM was April 11, 1945, indicating that Neubau subtypes included, G-10s, G-14s and K-4s through the end of April. Not too much happened after that. I am not certain which Monogram publication is being refered to on the Bf 109 K, but if it is the Close-Up, that was put together many years ago and a lot of very detailed late war production data has come to light since then. Also, it seems pretty clear the "K" series was designed at WNF, not Me, another indication that the Monogram book may be out of date regarding currently available source material.

Best Regards,

Artie BoB

ps. The material from this trip includes Me Monatsmeldung for much of 1943 and RLM Monatsmeldung (Thanks to Rabe Anton) for much of 1941. This means the Bf 109 production breakdown by subtype and factory for these periods is now in hand.
ab

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Ronnie the G-10/R6 were the adverse weather flying 109s, both the G-10 or G-10/R6 could be equipped with Rüstsatz R VI.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Artie Bob, thanks for the heads-up. Yes it's the old Monogram Close-Up book. Of course it isn't up to date, but I was curious where the info about the K-6 came from. I have sent the author an e-mail to see where he found that information.


I see... That's a bit confusing that R"6" was used for two different things! :)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Ronnie,

Get the JaPo books on the K and G-10.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Neither do I - I wrote the "so called G16". But if there was some kind of G10 or G14 with gun-pods and different motor in the last days of the war, this is exactly what I mean.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

The author of the Monogram Clopse-Up on the 109 K came back to me and confirmed that as far as his records go, indeed no K-6 reached the frontlines.


So the obvious question is... could one of the JG 300 Bf 109 G-10s have had gunpods fitted? If not, what unit did the aircraft come from that the 355th FG pilot shot down that day?


I did find a rather interesting shot of a Bf 109 G-10 in very dark camouflage:
http://www.bf-109.de/pics-bf109g/bf1...024-swfoto.jpg
The picture was taken in Bavaria and thus not directly relevant to the search, but still very interesting.
But again, no gunpods :(

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Bill Lyons was only 357FS pilot to shoot down a 109 on 9 February, 1945. Ludeke, who was flying with Lyons shot down an FW 190 in this engagement. This encounter was reported as near Brandenburg. He is still sharp as a tack at 80+. If you don't have his email address, PM me.

A flight of 2SF trailing the 355th FG bounced a gaggle of approx 50 109's near Magdeburg and shot down four. In this engagement, Bill Whalen became the Scout Force's only ace and the 2SF CO (Col John Brooks) shot down 2 and earned the DSC for the aggresive bounce.

Does anyone know which LW units were engaged?

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Yes, Bill Lyons is the pilot I am referring to. He remembers lots of details of the encounter, and I'm trying to find out which 109 he shot down.
When the 109 attacked, the flight split up. Yellow 1 and 2 disappeared while Yellow 3 (Lt. Ed Moroney) engaged the 109 but couldn't get on his tail. Yellow 4 (Lyons) then recovered from the stall he entered trying to avoid the 109's attack. At high speed he shot up, damaged the 109, rolled over the top and followed the fleeing 109 in a 45-degree dive and severely shot it up. The pilot tried to bail out but was wounded or killed by the bullets. His dive steepened and he went in with his aircraft.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi Skyraider3D

The distinctive features for the Bf 109 G-10/R6 are a PKS 12 automatic pilot, a FuG 125 Hermine bad weather radio and new resistance elements in the windscreen heating system. Forget the underwing cannons please. As Richard wrote, we never see underwings cannons on I., III and IV./JG 300 Messerschmitt 109 G-14/AS or G-10. Dont forget the fact that the opponents were american P-51s...

All the best

Jean-Yves Lorant

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Thanks, I understand that R6 on the G-10 does not mean gunpods. I was confused with the G-6/R6.

I know few 109s still used gunpods in 1945. Let alone 109s in green-brown camo. The veteran is very clear in his description about the wing cannon, though. He saw the gun smoke travel over the wings as the 109 flew straight at him. This makes sense for the 20mm gunpods, as the barrel extends in front of the wing. Because of the aerodynamics over a wing, the smoke from the cannon barrel will indeed travel over the top of the wing (opposed to a buried cannon where smoke would travel on both sides of the wing).

What unit could possibly be using gunpods at this point in the war? Could it be an operational training or a nightfighting unit (explaining the dark camo colours)?

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Not to sure about that Skyraider.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...09g6r6side.jpg

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Argghhhhhhhh /R6 always means adverse weather equipment Ronnie. The Rüstsatz were never assigned a /R designation and never modified the a/c name ;)

Ronnie check the NAGr 5 a/c i mentionned in an email, this one was heavily mottled with 83 paint and appear quite brown. It might be the same kind of camo which was applied to your a/c.

Another solution altogether would be that rather than a Gustav he encountered a Dora.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Thanks everyone for all the help on-board and off-board.

Assuming Bill Lyons indeed shot down a Bf 109 (he said it had a birdcage canopy, which excludes a Fw 190 and guncam would have confirmed the 109 too) I think we have a fairly certain match in Werkenr. 491292 flown by Fw. Wilhelm Gärtner. The crash location is in the vicinity of Burg bei Magdeburg. To further support this, the cause and location of Gärtner's crash were originally unknown.

I asked him for a more accurate description of the location and he said it was west or north-west of Magdeburg, heading south. The attack came from the east or southeast and it's not unlikely the pilot tried to escape in the direction he came from. This would lead him to Burg bei Magdeburg. I also asked him if the encounter was a seperate event or not. He said it was a completely seperate event with only Yellow 3 (Moroney) and himself involved with the 109. Yellow 1 and 2 broke left and disappeared. A short time after Lyons shot down the 109 he could here indistinct chatter over the radio. Later it turned out there had been a large air battle more to the east and south of Magdeburg.

Here is a spreadsheet I compiled of all Bf 109 losses I could find (many thanks for the help guys!) for 9 Feb 1945. Only the JG 300 losses were in the vicinity of Magdeburg.

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...9_Feb_1945.gif

Below I have plotted all the JG 300 Messerschmitt 109 losses for 9 February 1945. Red = KIA, Orange = WIA.

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...ses_9Feb45.jpg

I think on the data we have so far Gärtner is indeed the most likely victim of the encounter with Lyons.

Again, thanks everyone for the help!

Now if somebody happens to have a photo of Werkenr. 491292........? ;) :D



PS. Oli, you did mention the NAGr 5 a/c but I think you forgot to attach the photo, which you refer to in the e-mail. I forgot to ask you about this :)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

By the way...

Near Grieben (north of Magdeburg!) a Fw 190 D-9 of II/JG 301 was shot down on this date too. Werkenr 210905, cause: combat, damage: 100%, pilot: Ofw. Sulzgruber (fate?)

Could this be the machine Ludeke shot down perhaps?

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Apologies for spamming my own thread, but could "Yellow 17" have looked similar to this JG 300(!) machine. Note how the fuselage is a solid brown(?)!
http://www.bf-109.de/pics-bf109g/bf1...030-swfoto.jpg - "Yellow 7"
(no gunpods though ;))

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi Skyraider3D

I understand you don't read our JG 300 chronicle vol. 2 - of which only the french edition exist until now - and so you have only partial information about the air battles of february 9, 1945. You wrote: " the 109 went into a vertical dive and crashed into the ground". Wilhelm Gärtner's Messerschmitt was actually hit at hight altitude, went in a short dive and exploded in mid-air at 7000 m. Witness was Fw. Berthold Wendler (3./JG 300).
It would be wrong to believe that Wilhelm Gärtner was at the controls of "your" 109 - if it's actually a 109...

All the best
Jean-Yves Lorant

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

I see, hmm...

Do you have any idea what other aircraft it could have been? Besides Moroney I don't think their were any witnesses.

Perhaps it was the Dora of JG 301 afterall? I'd doubt this though, as the veteran specifically described a birdcage canopy and he could see something hanging out on the right side of the fuselage but couldn't tell if it was the pilot. In a Fw 190 the pilot would be clearly visible and it'd be more the "top" of the fuselage than the "right side". Also a Dora wouldn't be able to outturn a P-51 (as Moroney was outturned) and wouldn't be as easy to catch up in a dive (the German fighter went balls out and the Mustang nearly overshot with chopped throttle). Everything the veteran said sounds like a Bf 109 to me. Also the JG 301 was flown by an experienced fighter pilot. The pilot that attacked Lyons didn't use any deflection on a 45-degree-ish shot, and thus missed.

Reading your comments again, Gärtner's story is actually not too dissimmilar from what happened to the 109 I'm looking for. Lyons hit it at high altitude (about 25,000 ft), it went into a 45 degree dive, Lyons immediately got behind him after a barrell roll. He shot up the 109 until it smoked heavily and nosed over into a terminal dive. Perhaps Wendler saw the smoke bursting out of the 109 and described it as exploding? Lyons broke off at this point (around 6-8000 ft Lyons estimates) and the burning 109 went in.
Did Wendler say any more about the encounter itself? Did Gärtner bounce a flight of four Mustangs by any chance, coming out of a cloud bank?

Your help is very much appreciated, Jean-Yves! :)


PS. I can't really read French, sorry.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi, guys.

I seem too have a few additional losses for this date.

Your listing has 21, I have 39 losses listed for 109's on this date.

Are the additional ones of interest or have you already looked at them and counted them out of the ones that are possible for this action?

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi Andreas, 21 is all I could find, unfortunately, as my records are far from complete. Today however the veteran made a comment which most likely confirms the suspicions all people who thought it was a Dora all along! I showed him pictures of the 109 wing gunpods and he said that the guns were firing from about 1/5th out from the wingroot. Now that sounds a hell of a lot like a Dora now! :eek:

Would you be able to share all known Dora losses on this date with me? All I have is:

Fw 190 D-9, Werkenr. 210905, II/JG 301, crashed near Grieben after air combat. Grieben is north of Magdeburg, so the location matches perfectly.

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi Skyraider3D

Bert Wendler dont said me anything more. He was flying some 100 m behind his Schwarmführer (Gärtner) and saw the Messerschmitt enter into a dive and explode a few seconds later. A typical fuselage tank explosion. The 109 was transformed into flying remains.
The "birdcage cockpit canopy" seems really impossible at this period of the war. The whole I./JG 300 was flying Bf 109 with DB 605 AS and D engines - an all the planes were fitted with Erla "Vollsichthauben".

All the best from France - Jean-Yves

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Jean-Yves, I showed Bill Lyons a picture of the Erla Haube and he considered this a bird-cage canopy too. I guess he simply meant a canopy with framing over the top, opposed to the all-round vision bubbles of the American P-51 and P-47. The Dora canopy falls in the "bird-cage" category too I assume ;)
Thanks for the additional info, by the way. Definitely not Gärtner then, that's clear...

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Well, the only other Dora I have for this date which would fit the description is also a II./J.G.301 aircraft.

The pilot was Helmut Brenner. and the question is what aircraft he flew, as the loss is recorded twice in the GenQu6Abt documents, once with WNr 210909, and once with WNr 211909.

I guess someone will come up with the NVM data, so we can get this one correct?

A Dora from JG 6 was also damaged in a landing accident on this date.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Thanks Andreas!
Do you have more info about this loss you mentioned? Was the pilot killed in action? What was the crash location? And do you know the fuselage code for this machine?
Thanks in advance! :)

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

If he considers a Dora canopy to be a birdcage, he'd consider any germany fighter canopy as a birdcage, which doesn't narrow down the search. The ERLA haube has more framing than either blown or original Fw canopies.

IMHO you are only left with the wing guns as indicators.

PS. sorry for my lack of reaction wrt PM!!

Excuus :o

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Hi. The location for the loss of Brenner was given as unbekannt, and I haven't got the NVM, so the circumstances are unknown to me.

I guess the people behind the JG 300-series books should have more on this.

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Guys hi

Following this thread with interest. I don't have any info to add, but I love
the reserach aspect.

If nothing else Ronnie's conversations with Bill Lyons really illustrate the difference between combat and a passing interest.

Bill shot down a plane, but has very little recollection of the detail of the event (and who can blame him he was busy staying alive).

I would suspect that most kill identification came from the gun camera stills rather than the pilots debrief.

Pete

Re: Late-war Bf 109 question
 

Pete, you would be surprised the kind of details Bill Lyons remembers. I think the case is that many pilots simply distinguished no more than two piston engined fighters. Anything with a radial engine was a Focke-Wulf and anything with an inline engine was a Messerschmitt :)
On 18 March 1945 the 359th FG found out the hard way that this way of identification was rather limited when they shot down a number of Yak-9s ("Me 109s") and La-5FNs ("Fw 190s"). But that's a different story altogether ;)


Andreas, thanks. I assume you don't have the Kennzeichen for this second Dora then?
Below if a list of all Fw 190 claims in the area for that day. Could you possibly counter this list with all Fw 190 losses (both A and D). It would be good to see how these claims match up.
In bold the claims which are close to Bill Lyon's location.

355th FG/354th FS - Capt J E Duffy - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Berlin
355th FG/357th FS - Lt E P Ludeke - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - Brandenburg (Ludeke was Lyon's flight leader)
479th FG/434th FS - Capt G W Gleason - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SE of Magdeburg (he also got an Me 109)
479th FG/434th FS - Lt R D Creighton - 1x Fw 190 probable - SE of Magdeburg (he also destroyed an Me 109)
479th FG/435th FS - Maj H H Jordan - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - W of Brandenburg
479th FG/435th FS - Cap N R Benoit - 1x Fw 190 destroyed - SW of Brandenburg

The Fw 190 losses we have thusfar:

Fw 190 D-9 - 6/JG 301 - Obfw Max Sulzgruber - 210905 - Red 5 - Grieben (= N of Magdeburg)
Fw 190 D-9 - II/JG 301 - Helmut Brenner (KIA) - 210909 or 211909 - Kennzeichen unknown - location unknown
Fw 190 A-9 - 8/JG 301 - Lt Karl-Heinz Müller (KIA) - 207202 - Blue 5 - location unknown



This is premature, I know, but if we go by the assumption that JG 301 fought in the same area (roughly north of Magdeburg) and two of their number were shot down by the 435th FS then the third could be Lyon's. Brenner's Dora is the most likely possibility, as Lyons victim was KIA. Ludeke (Lyon's flight leader) Fw 190 was scored further east, while all 434th FS claims seem to be in the Belzig area where lots of JG 300 Me 109s crashed. To be sure, Ludeke did not participate in Lyon's air battle but apparently took part in a bigger scrap further to the east.


Thanks again all, both on-board and off-board. I feel we might just be able to crack this egg :)