Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hello all and happy new year 2017

1) in his biography,among his twenty victories,Kurt Hammel 4/JG5 is credited with a Pe-2 in May 42 (Alakurti) and three DB-3 in june 42 (Banak) with no specific date.

2) On his six? "abschuss" with III/JG5 (Gunther Scholz),I have only three of these.
06/02/42
18/05/42 (30.?)
14/07/42

Not having the last vol.of its serie,what does Jochen Prien say?

thanks in advance

michel

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Michel

Re Kurt Hammel, he claimed a Pe-2 on 28/5/42, and three DB-3Fs on 19/7/42 (not June).

What is the title of his autobiography? Is it still available? Do you have a copy?

Happy New Year

Brian

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Michel
You are correct with Scholz's six with Stab.III./JG 5(all against Russians). The first five were as a Hauptmann, the last a Major:-

6th February 1942 P-40 1110 hrs Nr.28
24th March 1942 Hurricane 1825 hrs Nr.29
18th May 1942 Hurricane 20km W Murmansk 1025 hrs Nr.30
14th July 1942 Hurricane near Murmaschi 1235 hrs Nr.31
12th August 1942 MiG-1 1430 hrs Nr.32
18th August 1942 P-40 W Cap Korabelayj 1624 hrs Nr.33

Scholz died not so log ago aged 102-103 am hoping his flugbuch might turn-up soon......not at all sure what he did after May 1944 when he gave-up command of JG 5.

Kind regards

Johannes

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

He moved one step further up to Jagdfliegerführer Norwegen, he took over his old responsibility in addition, when Ehrler was dismissed.

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Great! and thank you all

Brian
I read about twenty years ago a biography on Hammel,not an AUTObiography and I archived some information that now I come out.

michel

best regards

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Michel

Just received Ingo Mobius's book on Scholz yesterday. The earlier claims listed are a perfect match to the micro films, with exception only to the type of aircraft(these are recorded on the micro films as short codes like I-26). But the JG 5 claims are not so accurate. Of the six I listed five are found on the micro films, so can be no doubt.

Mobius lists two I do not, could be unconfirmed, or a mistake. He states he had no flugbuch to work from. There is the possibility that the daily micro film entries for Stab.III./JG 5 didn't start until late, and as the earlier typed-out Staffel micro film claims have not survived that he has additional information, but then he should have all those I can confirm with the micro films....which he doesn't.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

All

With regard to Scholz there is a clear problem with his claim on 6.2.1942.
Checking various sources, including Möbius biography, it is quite clear that this claim (in fact not even included by Möbius) had to be with 7./JG 54. On 6.2.1942 III./JG 5 had not yet been formed (21.3.1942 is the date I have)

Looking at Möbius time-frame Scholz became Kommandeur of IV./JG 1 on 11.2.1942 that is five days after his claim on 6.2.1942. IV./JG 1 became III./JG 5 on 21.3.1942 with Scholz continuing in command, and this date by Möbius fits my own above. It also has to be remembered that IV./JG 1 aka III./JG 5 at the time was spread out in western Norway and it took some time before two staffeln worked their way to the Finnish/Soviet front. Don't know exactly when the Stab arrived but not before April anyway, so it is impossible for Scholz to have been anywhere near any Soviet front line between 11.2.42 and sometime during spring that same year.

Since Johannes lists the claim on 6.2.1942 there must be something on the microfilms, but, since Möbius leaves the claim out, how certain is it to be 'our' Scholz and if it is why is it listed with III./JG 5, a unit not yet formed?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Stig,

Maybe there is possibly another explanation.

In Priens JFV series, he does not have the claim of 06.02.42 listed but has an additional 3 claims to Scholz in 1943 including one on 05.02.43 which is at the same time and a slightly different Grid location as the 1942 claim. This could be another case of misidentification of the hand written files that were microfilmed which can be difficult to read or a case of a simple transcription error.

Just to show how easy a transcription error can happen - in Johannes list above the last claim that he listed is 18.08.42 and noted the rank of Major when making the claim, yet Scholz wasn't promoted until 01.04.43 and most sources list this claim as 18.08.43 - so likely a transcription error from Johannes.

Regards,

Craig...

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Well Craig

There are always more than one way of thinking, interpreting and so on.

With regard to any claim on 6.2.1942 or 5.2.1943 I have basically no comment.
All I am saying is that IF Scholz claimed on 6.2.1942 he was NOT with III./JG 5

The date 18.8.1942 (as listed by Johannes) is a typing error here. In his book Johannes quite correctly lists it on 18.8.1943.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Guys

I'll look into that of 6th February 1942......it is the one not on the micro films, but pre micro film. Not listed in Ingo Mobius's book on Scholz. That for 5th March(not February) 1943 should have been on the micro films, not was not. However Scholz himself was very specific about it an Il-2 over his airfield at 1200 hrs, should have been witnessed by ground staff if lacking an air witness, but seems to remain unconfirmed.
Ingo says he didn't work from a flugbuch, probably took abschüße list from Prien publication, or has micro films himself, but if he did he'll have had the JG 5 claims which he generally doesn't.
So I think the 6th February 1942 claim is bogus, but the 5th March 1943 is genuine, but unconfirmed. There is also a claim for 28th April 1942 in the book, but I believe it's confused this that of 24th March 1943. The details of this last one are vague in the book.
Book also quotes that Scholz was told that ALL documents for Wehrmacht forces in Norway were to be destroyed in 1945!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Guys

I checked that for 6th February 1942 and it certainly is on the microfilm. In fact I worked-out a rough crash-site are of 50km West of Ozero.
But questionable is the claim for 24th March 1942.
Known are the first twenty-seven confirmed claims, the last two would be those in August 1942 and August 1943, but as those previous to these are only on the subsidiary A.S.M/V.N.E microfilm there could well be some missing to us. Therefore personally I am numbering those with JG 54 Nr.2-Nr.27, thereafter no numbering, and excluding that from 24th March 1942. I am reducing Scholz's total to at least Thirty-two!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Johannes

Since Ozero simply means lake in Russian, is it possible to be more precise?
Scholz own memory place him early in Feb 1942 moving back to JG 54 near Leningrad. He had already received transfer orders in January while recuperating from jaundice in his home at Chemnitz. His own memory had no recollection of any mission on 6.2.1942. Whatever, if he made a claim that date it must have been with 7./JG 54.

With regard to the claim dated 24.3.1942 also Group Prien has doubts about it.
The date is three days after IV./JG 1 had been re-designated III./JG 5 and personally I doubt Scholz and Stab III./JG 5 were anywhere near the front on that date, so yes, to me it is out as well. See Möbius book on page 86 and Scholz recollections.

It also has to be said that Scholz himself makes no claims in the book since he basically has no recollections of such dates at all.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Stig

My Ost map grid system ends a little above Leningrad, no where near the grid reference given for the claim of 37Ost20882, I used reference 36Ost20882 which is about 100km South-East of Leningrad, used this to mark the same spot on an atlas page, then followed the atlas page exactly 1000km due North. This brought me to an area 50km West of Oz.Imandra Oz.Imandra with your language reference would be Lake Imandra. However on the Western shoreline of this lake is a place name of Imandra, and on the Eastern shoreline is a place name of Ozera, and the rough claim site would appear to be 50km West of the place name Ozera...........if I have not made a complete mess of it.
However as this area is only 150km SSE or Murmansk perhaps I have made a complete mess of it, unless he was in fact with Stab.III./JG 5 and not 7./JG 54.
The mikrofilm entry states the former, but the films are only 99.99% accurate, so there is always doubt. Another way of saying the crash-site would be in Russia 160km East of the Finnish place name of Lokka.
Somebody better qualified than myself should look into this.

It's a pity we couldn't get an almost complete abschüße list to Scholz before he died in 2014. Did the same with Friedrich Obleser a few years before he died. My friend Bernd Barbas had questioned him about his claims over U.S aircraft in 1944 of which he was always quoted as have 120 confirmed claims, of which nine were U.S, however I could find nothing for him U.S wise and knew Bernd was meeting him shortly and could he ask about it. Obleser was very honest about it and said he did shot-down nine U.S aircraft during 1944, however on each occasion he was after fleeing for his life and thus saw no impact, therefore he submitted no claims, but he had no details as the American's stole his flugbuch just after the war. So Bernd and myself quickly typed-up an abschüße list of 112 confirmed claims over Russian aircraft, and Bernd presented it to him at the JG 52 re-union. Bernd also had the fore-site to get a photo taken of the event. This was the first time Obleser had information on any of his claims for sixty years. I do believe Ernst Obermeier's biography was some way off in it's calculations.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Thanks Johannes

Yes the PlQu stated is west of Murmansk alright, but since III./JG 5 did not exist on 6.2.1942 and 'our' Scholz had not yet even been transferred to IV./JG 1, you can see there is a clear problem here.

Since so many sources state the same thing (and I don't believe it is a case of copying each other), something seems to be wrong with the microfilm. Since I have not seen it, impossible to say where the problem really is.

A good site covering almost all Luftwaffe PlQu can be found here.
It looks good and fits well with those spots I have tried.
http://airfields-wwii.com/tools/gradnetz.html

Cheers
Stig

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Stig

I know what you mean III./JG 5 just shouldn't have existed. I did find another similar claim for Uffz Rudolf Gerndt of 9./JG 5 grid 37Ost30323 for 24th January 1942. Everything appears correct, and fits in......except the year!
I am wondering if these claims should read 1943? Only other real possibility is that III./JG 5 was formed the same time as the other JG 5 Gruppen, but everything published/written says not.........but naturally mistakes are duplicated time and time again.

The grid references are no good to help as the front didn't really move, also each pilots rank doesn't help either, everything points to the year being wrong!
With Gerndt he as far as I can tell was always an Uffz, and moved around JG 5 a lot. Perhaps somebody can say when he joined JG 5.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S I have actually always thought the mikrofilm were typed/written towards the end of the war. The earlier typed ones often have confirmation dates for a year after the claim. Same should occur for the daily claims, especially if A.S.M. Last claim recorded at all is just one for 1st January 1945, which must have been written-up a little after that. Actually towards the end of 1944 units stopped being included on the daily claims list, with JG 5 this is October 1944, JG 5 made huge number of claims this month, but they are missing from the daily claims East sheet. In my opinion this suggests that the claims were sent to a central place(RLM) and that towards the end of 1944 they just were not getting through. With JG 5 the last claims against the Russians were in October 1944, and I guess they were leaving Finland.

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

Hi Guys

Am still looking into this. Unlike the other Gruppen III./JG 5 earlier typed-out mikrofilm ended at the usual time i.e late July 1942 and from then on entries for this Gruppe were entered on the daily mikrofilm. The typed-out earlier version survives for 7./JG 5. Therefore if the Stab.III./JG 5 is as it should be in the same vein then Scholz claims past July 1942 should all be accounted for.

See Brian's e.mail of 9th December 2016 that I have restarted about Uffz Gast of 9./JG 5. Guess we need to keep digging.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S JG 5 recorded their crash-site grid references in several formats, i'll try to see if it can be chronological.

Re: Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5
 

06.02.1942
3) Jagdeinsatz:
Jagdvorstösse und Begleitschutz blieben ohne Feindberührung. Begleitende Jäger griffen Barackenlager Südostspitze Tolwandsee erfolgreich mit Bordwaffen an.
4) Eingesetzt:
1 Aufklärungsflugzeug.
16 Kampfflugzeuge.
12 Jagdflugzeuge.