Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Recently, there was a new photo of P-51B/C T9+PK in Luftwaffe colors, which was crash landed at the end of the war, according to statements by Herr Rosarius.
I've always wanted to identify the parent unit from which this Mustang originated. While looking at the tail, it is just possible to discern the numbers "46". Can perhaps someone with better eyesight discern more of the serial number.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

I am terribly sorry to admit that I don't see any signs which look like '46', the quality of these scans is to poor and enlarging the shown pictures results in pixels rather than readable numbers...

Have you looked in H.Stapfer's book 'Strangers in a strange land'
Good luck,

Marcel Hogenhuis, Venlo

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

I have that book but it doesn't add any more information. I realize the quality of the photo is poor but I'm fairly sure I can see the numbers. Oh well, it was a long shot

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

As it was not repainted , this plane could have its USAAF service datas left under the windscreen.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

"On Special Missions" - Smith, Creek and Petrick (Classic) has two photos of this aircraft on page 117.
Unfortunately, the photo quality is as good as these posted here - so nothing new to add on that front.

Caption indicates that the aircraft was found by US troops at Goslar.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

TI Report A-373 gives the serial number as 43-12452.

Hope this helps.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

That's great news! According to number of web sites, 43-12452 was apart of the 355FG, 357FS and was lost on March 29,1944 while being flown by Captain Ben Johnston. The story is: "Johnston's engine blew during the scrap and he crash landed on a German field about 5 minutes after the fight.' This is from Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons: the HIstory of the 355th Fighter GRoup" by Bill Marshall.

Question; What is TI Report A-373?

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

TI A-Reports are a series of reports produced by the US Air Technical Intelligence Section reporting on individual shot down aircraft, airfields and various installations inspected. They start just after the D-Day landings and go through until after the end of the war. As best as I've been able to determine no complete collection exists but quite a number can be found if you look hard enough. Mostly these are listings. Only very occasionally are photos attached.

They are incredibly useful but not quite the goldmine some would wish as towards the end of the war and in its immediate aftermath, there was no longer the need to record markings, Werk Nummern in the same detail as there had been a few months previously and you might often see a listing as 10 x Fw 190. Obviously this one was of interest being a recaptured machine so you've been a little lucky.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Thanks Steve, now I can establish the identity of three of the Zirkus Rosarius P-51B/C
T9+HK 42-24825 4 FG
T9+CK 42-103458 325 FG
T9+PK 43-12452 355FG

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

The following list was composed from old LEMB posts. (PatrickVg)

North American P-51 USA 42-10358
Crashlanded/crashed on 9Dec.1944 at Odenburg (is this 103458 or 103581?) was it still intact?

North American P-51 Tennessee's Partner USA 41 42-103455
318FS/325FG, Pilot Capt. George F. Campbell. Captured on 9Dec.1944. This was John Gaston's usual a/c.

North American P-51 My Lady/ Miss Marilyn USA A54 42-103458
318FS/325FG, Pilot Capt Thomas H. Todd. This was Henry Long's usual a/c. 9Dec.1944

North American P-51 Marry Norris USA 61 42-103581
318FS/325FG, Pilot Lt. P.Sangermano. Captured on 9Dec.1944 at Odenburg, intact?

North American P-51 Marije USA 51 42-103911
318FS/325FG, Pilot Lt. Brownwell captured on 9Dec.1944.

North American P-51B USA CS-W 43-12147
370FS/359FG, Pilot was Lt.Robert W. Siltaamaki. The a/c was reported to have been in "as new" condition when it was captured on 21Jul.1944. (18Jul.1944 at Leeder? Source: Mike Murphy)

North American P-51B "Jerry" USA QP-G 43-24825 8+7, T9+HK
334FS/4FG. Took off from Debden AirfieldpPiloted by 2ndLt. Thomas E. Fraser. It was shotdown and crashlaned on the 6Jun.1944 at Cambrai. It was used at E-stelle Rechlin on 7Jul.1944. It was seen at Neuroppin to train Hungarian pilots to use FW-190's being assigned to Beute-Zirkus Rosarious near Oranienburg, Germany in October 1944. On 12Dec.1944, it was lost during a Beute-Zirkus Rosarious tourney at Botzow near Velten, Germany. The pilot, Oblt. Leo Potjans of 1./JG77, was killed in the accident. Eventualy it was Salvaged on 21Sep.1945 the date that covered all outstanding a/c in the ETO.

North American P-51B-5 "Pate Pet" USA WD-L 43-6583
Force landed on 17Sep.1944 near Bodin airfield. 2nd Lt. Ethan L. Smith, Jr was seen running away, but later died in a German hospital.

North American P-51D USA 44-13412 Crashlanding/crashed on 6Feb.1945 it had 35% damage.
North American P-51D USA 44-13905 Crashlanding/crashed on 20Feb.1945 at Barmersdorf.

North American P-51D USA CL-U 44-14167 or 14168
338FS/55FG, 1stLt. R.I. Barrett landed his a/c on 26Nov.1944 at Soesterberg Airfield (Netherlands). It was damaged only 10-15%.

North American P-51D USA QP-K 44-14271 Crashlanding/crashed at Wiesbaden, it was seen at Dresden-Klotzsche.

North American P-51D (F-6D) USA 5M-F 44-14272 Brought down on 25Apr.1945. The a/c was piloted by 1/Lt Narborne A. Thomase.

North American P-51D USA 44-63162 Crashlanding/crashed on 20Jan.1945 at Bad Eilsen. Was it salvaged and repaired?

North American P-51B USA T9+CK
Used by Versuchsverband / Ob.d.L. (later Versuchsverband OKL ?) It was originally captured in the overall olive drab color scheme and marked in Luftwaffe markings as shown; however, later the Germans removed the olive drab color and the aircraft was operated with silver top sides with a yellow underside and the same T9+CK code.

North American P-51 6Z-E Crashlanding/crashed on 3Feb.1945 at Kirchdaun. Was it salvaged and repaired?

North American P-51B USA QP-D
On the 5Mar.1944, because of fuel shortage, 1/Lt. Spiros Pisanos of the 334FS/4FG, landed his a/c near Bernay. The pilot could escape. His aircraft was only 5% damaged and could have been repaired by the Germans.

North American P-51 Mustang I England ??-B AM180
239SQN reported missing on a reconnaissance flight toYpres on 22Jul.43 it was captured in not airworthy condition and sent to Beutepark 5.

North American P-51D 413616 Crashlanding/crashed on 11Sep.1944 at Oberhaching with 20% damage.
North American P-51 92791? Crashlanding/crashed on 5Dec.1944 at Scharfenberg. It was used for parts.
North American P-51D 415174 Crashlanding/crashed on 9Dec.1944 at Odenburg with 35% damage.
North American P-51 41442 Crashlanding/crashed on 6Oct.1944 at Reureld with 10% damage.
North American P-51D 414358 Crashlanding/crashed on 3Jan.1945 at Laupheim. It went to a junkyard.
North American P-51D 415527 Crashlanding/crashed on 14Jan.1945 at Goost Gutberg. It went to a junkyard.
North American P-51D 411363 Crashlanding/crashed on 3Feb.1945 at Zerbst.
North American P-51D 463189 Crashlanding/crashed on 10Mar.1945 at Buhlendorf.
North American P-51D 415266 357th FG, crashlanding/crashed on 2Mar.1945 at Schora.
North American P-51K 411739 479th FG, crashlanding/crashed on 22Feb.1945 at Cilly.
North American P-51K 411696 359th FG, crashlanding/crashed on 3Mar.1945.
North American P-51B T9+PK It was used by Cirkus Rosarius and it was found at Goslar by American troops at the end of the war.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Tom Fraser, 4th FG, landed his P-51B-15 due to a coolant leak on D-Day. Only one that matches Lerche's account of flying to the site as LW guys fixed repair. He flew it out next day. QP-G 43-24825.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

What sub-type of P-51 43-12452 was please ?

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Thank you for the link !
So : P-51B-1NA

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

I don't think that the 2 P-51s T9+CK were the same plane.
The silver one was P-51C-5NT 42-103458 captured unpainted (ref : Luftwaffe in Focus Spezial n°2 pp 37 & 38).
Tha camouflaged one was probably older, identity unknown.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

I agree, the first P-51B/C coded T9+CK was not 42-103458, as this 325th FG was lost on December 9,1944 and did not join Zirkus Rosarius until some time after this date.
It seems as though the first T9+CK was lost/damaged and the code letters were re-used.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Two pics of P.51 B/C one with tail fin fillet one without from the old LEMB...

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

The first P-51 captured by Germany was P-51B-15-NA 43-24825 QP-G with no DFF. It would have arrived at 4th FG in NMF sometime in late April, early May. It went down intact with puncture in coolant line near Rouen on D-Day and Lieutenant Tom Fraser was POW.

P-51C-5-NT 42-103458 received the DFF as a post production Field Modification coupled with Reverse Rudder Boost Tab. It was accepted by AAF on March 10, 1944 and reached 325th FG in May 1944. Downed on 12-10-44.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Specifically P-51B-1-NA (#360 of 400)

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Actually, I am tending to believe that 43-12452 was possibly the first Merlin engine Mustang captured by the Luftwaffe. From your book "Angels,Bulldogs and dragons":
Engine blew...made a wheels down dead stick landing on a German airfield."
Since this took place on March 29,1944, it would have to qualify. Obviously, it was not flight ready by the time that 43-24825 landed on D-Day.

Re-engined by the Luftwaffe at some time, it was made flyable by ZIrkus Rosarius only to be abandoned at Goslar A/F.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Technical curiosity question:

With several ac listed being repaired or engines being replaced by Luft personnel, did they have English measurement tools or was the US industry already using metric?

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Hello,
These Luftwaffe Mustangs were/are well covered on the LEMB website.

If I recall correctly,
"Jerry" from memory was the original T9+CK
NO fin strak.
The later one was "My Lady Margaret"
With fin steak.

Then there was T9+HK and T9+PK
In LEMB there are many photos of all known captured P51's and comments for each.
Alex

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

The US aircraft industry did not and still today does not use metric fasteners.

FYI - Both Airbus and Boeing make extensive use of American standards for hardware, like MIL spec, MS (Military Standard), AN (Army Navy Standard or NAS (National Aerospace Standard). No metric on either.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

I'm pretty sure that 43-24825 was T9+HK
In JG-77-Volume 4, the loss of Oblt. Leo Potjans on December 10,1944 has the following information: Absturz, Übung, Bötzow bei Velten , 100%, P-51B Wkr 825 T9+HK

In "Battle over the Third Reich" by Held (p59):"This was one of two captured Mustangs to crash during the first half of 1944[sic]. Not being familiar with the characteristics of its laminar flow wing the pilots got into incipient spins with insufficient height to recover.". The picture shown is that of T9+HK.

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

Hello,
I though that the photo shown in post 1 was of "T9+PK" ?
Alex

Re: Captured P-51B T9+PK
 

The non-metric /English/ measurements and tools were quite popilar in prewar Europe. In Germany the Zoll /inch/ size was widely used.