Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

I am seeking confirmation of the crew of Dornier Do18 wrk 809 of Ku.FL.Gr 2/606.

The aircraft was attacked and forced down into the North Sea on 17/10/1939 having been intercepted 50 miles east of Blyth, UK, by Gladiators from 607 Squadron based at RAF Acklington, Northumberland.

In Bill Norman's excellent book 'Broken Eagles 2 - Luftwaffe Losses over Northumberland and Durham' he confirms the crew as follows:

Pilot: Fw. ? Grabbet (POW)
Obs: Oblt. Siegfried Seloga (POW)
W/Op: Unt. Hilmar Grimm (POW)
Mech: Uffz. Kurt Seydel (POW)

The Operational Record Book for 607 Squadron confirms that 4 POW's resulted from the loss of this aircraft and mentions no fatalities.

Further digging confirms that Kurt Seydel was lost the previous night in a Junkers Ju88.

Can anyone confirm the occupants of the above Dornier Do18 and what it's mission was the day it was lost?

Many thanks,

Jim

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

The aircraft was 8L+DK and was on routine reconnaissance. It had spotted a Grom-class destroyer and following the engagement, force landed at 13.48hrs. According to ObdM records, one man was injured (although it doesn't name names). The crew were taken aboard the destroyer which was subsequently, but unsuccessfully attacked at 15.07hrs by aircraft from 1./406.

According to loss reports, the reason for the loss is stated as flak from the destroyer, not fighters. Moreover, Seydel is listed as being killed (which would support the ObdM notion of one man injured).

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Thanks Adam,

I have a combat report from 607 Squadron about an attack on a Do18 on this date. The engagement began 50 miles east of Blyth and the Operational Record Book for 607 Squadron confirms it as their first victory.

However, the combat reports don't mention the Dornier crashing, only that once they had ran out of ammo that it was seen heading north east very close to the water. White smoke/steam was seen coming from the engines.

It looks like it ran into further trouble after its initial skirmish with the Gladiators. Seems likely then that Seydel may have died from his injuries on board the Destroyer.

The ORB reads as follows:

"At 12:40 hours on the same day a section of “B” flight, pilots Flt Lt Sample, F/O G.D. Craig and P/O W.H.R. Whitty were ordered to endeavour to contact enemy seaplanes off the coast. This section sighted a flying boat of enemy type about 25 miles out to sea at 13:30 hours; all pilots attacked individually from astern, and although the aircraft (which turned out to be a Dornier Do18) was not immediately destroyed, it was subsequently found by a trawler about 50 to 60 miles from the coast and four of the crew rescued and taken prisoner. Our casualties nil, and thus the squadron scored its first victory of the war simultaneously with its first actual engagement. The section commanded by Flt Lt Sample returned to Acklington at 14:10 hours."

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

The crew were:
Ob.lt.z.See Siegfried Saloga (B) POW
Fw. Paul Grabbe (F) POW
Ob.Fk.Mat. Hilmar Grimm (Bf) POW
Kurt Seydel (Bw) POW

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Jim,

I'm afraid that your source for suggesting SEYDEL was a Ju88 crewman lost the previous night is incorrect:

2./KüFlGr. 606 Dornier Do18D-3 (0809). Engine badly damaged in attacks by Gladiators of B Flight, No.607 Squadron, (F/L J. Sample, F/O G.D. Craig, and P/O W.H.R. Whitley) east of Blyth during search mission for missing Ju88 of 2./KG30. Disengaged and retired east but forced to ditch 35 miles east of Berwick 2.00 p.m. BM Uffz Kurt Seydel killed, FF Fw Paul Grabbet and BO Oberlt zur See Siegfried Saloga both captured wounded, BF Oberfunkmaat Hilmar Grimm captured unhurt. Aircraft 8L+DK 100% write-off.
The survivors were rescued by the Polish destroyer 'Grom'. Wreckage thought to be this aircraft was located by S4+CK of 2./KüFlGr.406 some 85 miles east of Hartlepool on 22 October. A Junkers Jumo 205 engine recovered from the sea 30 miles north-east of the Tyne was said to have originated from this aircraft and displayed in the North East Aircraft Museum at Sunderland.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Many thanks everyone for the replies.

I will endeavour to search for the Interrogation reports for the surviving crew when I go to the National Archives, it might fill in some of the blanks, i.e. how much damage was sustained in the Gladiator attack, whether Seydel was killed in this attack or the subsequent attacked by the destroyer which eventually forced it down.

I have obtained the death certificate for Seydel but all it confirms is that he died as the result of a gunshot wound in the thorax and the time is given as unknown and location is given as at sea. His death was registered at the Royal Navy Hospital at Port Edgar.

Can anyone confirm the markings this Do18 would have carried, in particular the upper surfaces and wing tips?

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

This Do 18D-3 of 2./606 W.Nr. 809 carried the unit code 8L+DK. The crew names specified in my eartlier message is those listed in KTB for October 1939 by General der Luftwaffe beim Oberkommando der Marine.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Thanks Seaplanes for confirming the crew listing.

The combat report of the Gladiators describes the colour scheme of the upper surfaces of the Do18.

I'm just curious to know if they match the scheme carried by aircraft belonging to Ku.FL.Gr 2/606

Jim

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

You may be disappointed with what is on file at Kew under AIR40 regarding this incident. I only have the attached on file.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

I believe it was too early for detailed intelligence reports?

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Thanks for the additional replies and the information from the AI(K) file, saved me a trip to London for that ;-)

I'm seeing nothing, other than the date, to suggest that there is any concrete evidence to tie the Gladiators to this Do18 loss. Are any of you aware of records from the German side which might confirm how many Do18's were dispatched on 17th October 1939 to this part of the UK? I'm wondering if we are talking about two different aircraft?

Are there any clues to the name of the ship which it was attacking?

Jim

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Jim,

I know of no evidence to suggest that the Do18 in question made an attack on any ship. It was one of two aircraft of 2./606 tasked with maintaining contact with enemy shipping in the area and tracking its position following an early morning search mission for a missing Ju88 of I./KG30 ( see Adam’s Post #2). At 08.50 hours the 8L+BK reported a light cruiser some 125 sm east of Sunderland which they later identified as the Polish destroyer ‘Grom’. 8L+BK was ordered to continue shadowing the cruiser and report its position while 8L+DK was instructed to simply shadow the enemy vessel. At 12.40 hours three Gladiators of No.607 Squadron were sent off from Acklington to see off the Do18s and around 13.30 hours engaged the 8L+DK which was damaged and retired east but eventually forced to ditch 35 sm east of Berwick around 13.42 hours. Meantime, the earlier contact report triggered six He115s of 1./406 being sent off from List at 09.57 hours on an armed reconnaissance Flamborough Head - Aberdeen plus three more armed with bombs and at 10.20 hours they were followed by 13 He111s of KG26 who took off from Westerland. At 15.07 hours two He115s of the Bombenkette 1./406 found and attacked the destroyer six sea miles north of Berwick dropping four SC-250 bombs without result and at 13.55 hours He115 7T+XH of 1./406 reported three He115s being chased by three Gladiators and coming under attack by the fighters themselves but suffering no damage.

KTB Gen d. L. beim Ob.d.M: Evening Report 17.10.39 23.35 hours

“13.48 hours second shadowing aircraft D 2/606 forced-landed in Qu.5240. 1 man wounded. Rescue of the crew by (other) shadowing aircraft not possible as dinghy shot through and approach of the destroyer ‘Grom’. This picked up the crew of D.

“… several combats between long-range reconnaissance aircraft and the bombing Kette (of 1/406) with enemy fighters. (Aircraft) D of 2/606 probably shot down.

“Do18 of St.2/606 40 sm 76° Berwick shot down by enemy AA fire 100% crash. 1 man believed wounded, crew presumed captured.” [Crew listed as quoted in Post #4]

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Hi Peter,

That is absolutely fantastic, just what I was looking for. Another flight from 607 Sqn attacked the HE-115's later that day too, I have the combat report for both encounters if you want copies.

A book, Northumberland Aviation Diary, has the wrong facts and I think they relate to another Dornier Do18 which landed near HMS Juno and the crew were captured. The print quality isn't great but the codes don't appear to match my Dornier Do18.

I suspected that my Dornier, being a lone reconnaissance aircraft, wouldn't actively engage in combat, whereas those HE115's, which had fighter escort, would have.

Jim

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

The destroyer shadowed by this Do 18 could not have been the Polish destroyer ORP GROM as she was at Plymouth on this day, involved in this incident was the British destroyer HMS JUNO.

The entries in the Admiralty War Diary on 17 October 1939 concerning enemy air activity reads:
Attack on HMS IRON DUKE at Scapa Flow: Air attacks carried out at 1033 by four bombers. Dive attacks. Bombs released from about 1500 feet. Ship had two near misses port side. Took heavy list, now beached in Ore Bay and list considerably reduced. One rating killed. One aircraft shot down in flames [claimed by HMS ESKIMO], another possibly damaged. Wick aircraft did not get in touch.

German aircraft visited many parts of the East coast between the Thames and Scapa. p.m. there was a further attack on Scapa by a formation of 6 and another of 4. High level attacks at intervals from 1240 to 1430. No casualties or hits [near miss of HMS ASHANTI but no damage]. One Heinkel brought down.

At 1130 HMS JUNO attacked a/c's shadowing her SE of the Farne Island. Aircraft came to her assistance. A Dornier flying boat was brought down off the Tyne by 607 Sqn RAF.
47 Sqn RAF brought down one aircraft off Whitby a.m.
At 1600 a trawler reported he encountered a German aircraft in the sea 50 miles east of Dundee. No crew seen. Salvage attempts failed.
At 1530 a German seaplane machine gunned three unarmed trawler-minesweepers 2 miles off Spurn Point. No result.
At 1600 a German seaplane alighted on the water 25 miles NE of Tyne and remained 2 hours.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Hi Rainer,

Do you have any official documents you can share confirming HMS Juno as the ship in question?

I have seen this ship mentioned in previous reports of this incident but the corresponding photos show Do18 M7-YK which I believe was lost on 26.09.1939.

Using all of the material provided here I have put together a timeline to try and make sense of it all, this is what we have:

11:30 hours - HMS Juno attacked shadowing aircraft SE of Farne Islands
12:40 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Blue’ section take off on patrol
13:30 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Blue’ section make contact with lone enemy seaplane 50 miles east of Blyth, later ID'd as Dornier Do18
13:30 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Green’ section take off to intercept enemy seaplanes
13:42 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Blue’ section break off attack on lone Do18
13:55 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Green’ section engage possible HE115’s 20 miles east of Blyth.
13:48 hours - Do18 forced landed on the sea
14:00 hours - Do18 ditched 35 miles east of Berwick
14:10 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Blue’ section land at Acklington
14:50 hours - 607 Sqn ‘Green’ section land at Acklington
15:07 hours - Destroyer containing rescued crew of '8L+DK' attacked by aircraft from 1./406

Prisoner of war report suggests that 8L+DK was brought down off the Isle of May. Thinking distances, from the initial attack on the Do18 50 miles east of Blyth to the Isle of May, we are looking at approximately 100 miles flown between 13:30 hours and the aircraft ditching between 14:00 hours around the Berwick area, maybe later if it ditched off the Isle of May. Also take into consideration that it is possible the Dornier Do18 had a fuel leak, caused by fire from the engagement with the Gladiators between 13:30 and 13:42 hours. I'm not expert on the Do18 and its max speeds etc so not sure how fast it could be travelling. The combat report estimates its speed as 150mph at the point 'Blue' section first made contact at 13:30 hours.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Hi Jim,

I sent it to you by e-mail.

If the photos shows Do 18 M7+YK then someone mixed up two events, because this flying boat made an emergency landing after an air combat with Skuas of 803 Sqn FAA and subsequently sank after the crew was taken prisoner on 26 September 1939.

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Hello
a useful source for checking the RN ships is http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-aContents.htm
In this case it only confirm that HMS Juno was in the area see: http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...J-HMS_Juno.htm
but Langtree’s The Kelly’s – British J, K & N Class Destroyers of World War II (2002) confirms that during her voyage to Rosyth she rescued the crew of a shot-down Do24 flying boat. As many aviation historians are a bit unreliable on marine matters, same goes other way around as you see, the a/c identification is not exactly correct.

Juha

Re: Crew of Dornier Do18 wrkn 809, Ku.FL.Gr 2/606 lost 17/10/1939
 

Many thanks Juha for passing on the information and that very useful resource.

I will delve into the ships logs for HMS Juno when I visit the National Archives and hopefully there will be some detail on the rescue of the Dornier Do18 crew.

The aircraft came down anywhere between Blyth and the Isle of May, but it would be nice to narrow it down a little more.

Many thanks,