Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

How many claims against "allies".
According to Obermaier,now a very old source,about 17:it's a bit vague.

Ok for the 8 with JG 7.....and the others?

best regards
michel

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hello all

I would like to come back to you about my post.
So,"guys",impossible to know the claim number in the West for Schuck?.
Since my last post,I found another two with 10/JG5 in 2/45,so,for the time:ten,but not yet 17!

One of you has any suggestions?

thank's in advance

michel

Walter Schuck: claims against "allies"
 

Hi Michel

I have always seen him credited with eight victories against the Western Allies claimed with the Me 262 while serving with 3./JG 7. Possibly he did claim additional victories with 10./JG 5 during the RAF raids against Norway but unfortunately I am not aware of any of these being identified. Hopefully someone else can add to this.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

He was not flying a lot against the allies when in Norway.

He was wounded during take off from Petsamo, spent a lot of time during the Ehrler-incident, trying to save him from court marshal.

He was a that time staffelkapitän for 10./JG5 and was supposed to move to Gossen i December 44. He arrived at Gossen at some uknown time after that. He left Gossen 19/2 for JG7 and Me 262.

I'm only aware of his claims the 16/2-45, a battle I know very well, these claims are not valid, no allied airplanes were shot down this day. However, a few barely made it home, so I'm pretty sure they were sure themselves.

I know there were search parties out after this battle, but they were probably looking for Wolfgang Kindt who was MIA this day. Not even a easy recovery of a 109 close to land was done.

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

So,it's 197. and 198. "abschuss" on 16/02/45 according to Obermaier rests on nothing? and only 8 "abschuss" in west.
In his book (2007) "Luftwaffe eagle from the Me.109 to the Me.262",he would therefor make no allusions to his victories and in particular those obtained in the West with JG5 ? if there are ?:it's really a pitty!.

Someone who has his book may be able to confirm it.

best regards

michel

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hi Guys

Schuck's total of 206 is based solely upon his statement that Hermann Goring said that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims have now been confirmed, thus the Eichenlaub is to be awarded. However if we take Schuck's word for it, then though Goring made this statement, they were not confirmed.......therefore Schuck's total is 181 of which ten were in the West, eight American and two British.
When I made a list of Schuck's claims there was evidence that one in particular was numbered, going by memory it was his 113th, which matches in with his total being 181, of which I managed to find 176.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Johannes

I presume you are talking about his claims no 172-196?
This is what he claims in his memoires (from 2007) regarding them

'172-196*** 9. or 10./JG 5 between 1943 and 1944, subsequently confirmed by RLM
*** Victories 172-196 were initially reported by the Navy, checked by the RLM in Berlin and confirmed by them in November 1944.'

At the end of the table he also makes an excuse saying he no longer had any of his logbooks available and the list is based upon published sources, internet and other documents made available to him.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hi Stig

Yes. I know of no other pilot getting a large number of unconfirmed claims later confirmed en-mass. As we are likely all aware now JG 5's claimers were the most unreliable in the Luftwaffe, probably three claims to every Sowiet loss. Yet his last fout claims using the Me262 were witnessed by the Mustang pilot who shot him down. I found that the 6th Staffel were the most biggest offenders. In fact JG 5's pattern of claiming is unlike any other unit i.e combat much rarer, but usually huge numbers claimed by each pilot, and often over the sea making disputes difficult. Perhaps Schuck was more honest than your average JG 5 claimer, and that he was just mistaken with the British claims of 16th February 1945. All Airforces claims do not match enemy losses!

As we all know there are two sides to every argument. JG 5's claims for some reason are omitted on the daily mikro film sheets before any other unit...reference to the twenty-five being confirmed in November 1944. I think that JG 5 abruptly stopped claiming against the Red Airforce at the end of October 1944, thereafter were claiming British aircraft, though few of them. Seems that a more than average percentage of JG 5 pilots ended up transferring to JG 7.

By memory Schuck states he sold his flugbuch many years ago, if he had any interest in his former life, surely he would have copied it, and what exactly happened to it? The Kommodore of JG 5 Günther Scholz stated that they were instructed to burn ALL paperwork in 1945, seems Scholz is likely to have burnt his own flugbuch!

Now that I think of it I cannot recall having seen a "200" plague made for Schuck, but I guess this like Galland's "100" can be explained away by the lateness during the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hi

Thank you for these clarifications.This explains a lot of things "on the dark side" of some its claims.

michel

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Thanks Johannes

Yes JG 5 was more or less fighting their own side show battles up around Petsamo - Murmansk area, almost becoming a 'club' of their own.

It is difficult for me to be sure of how their claims relate, with so little coming out from Russia in English regarding their own losses.

The odd thing with JG 5 is that some days their claims seems to tally pretty well while other dates don't tally at all.

Hopefully more books will both be translated and published in the future. Some Russian 'authorities' seem to think the best way forward is to discredit the German claims instead of researching their own side in detail. I find myself thinking that is the worst way to go and only stops the truth to come out.
As a reader I am very much capable to understand if a pilot on any side is what you call honest or not :)

But hopefully we will get in the future, a team of both western and Russian authors who will produce books in the style of Shores et al with their research of the Mediterranean area! Bergström has tried with the help of some Russians, but I think his try is not quite what I am looking for.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hi Stig and other interested parties:

I agree with your comments and hope that 'AIR WAR OVER THE ARCTIC: Murmansk and the Convoys 1941-1942' currently being finalised prior to publication, will answer some of the queries.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Walter Schuck had all his belongings in his car which was sent by train to Germany when he transferred to JG7. The car was later found in Denmark, with all his belongings removed, all he had was lost.

No RAF planes were lost 16/2-45, reporting seems to be a little messy for III/JG5 during this time. But ULTRA-messages might possibly show up to make this clearer sometime.

This day is referred in his biography, and he probably remember it correctly too, but his kills were not confirmed by someone that also believed them to go down. It was probably just to much planes in a demanding fjord-scenery to have a complete control over the situation.

Re: Walter Schuck:claims against "allies"
 

Hi Stig

With regards to honesty/reliability. An honest unit should be claiming 130-150% of enemy losses. I have found that to call an entire Geschwader, Gruppe or even Staffel dishonest isn't really paying justice to the honest guys, and even Staffel that is working the system may have honest guys. I find that the only way to determine who's dishonest is to match claims/losses over a long period, and knowing exactly who's claiming, and who's in the air even.

But I did hear somewhere that JG 5 considered itself abandoned, and being given not quite the best aircraft, therefore they made excessive claims just to spite. Usually the biggest over-claimers are people with influence i.e the leaders. But we must be sure about the Sowiet losses before making judgement.
One obvious exception is Heinrich Bartels who stands out because unlike most who cannot carry on bad habits with honest units he did within JG 27, how exactly he got his claims confirmed I have not yet established. But remember the four JG 27 pilots caught not just over-claiming, but claiming even though not actually having made combat, somebody somewhere must have made the first suggestion amongst them. With Bartels I am assuming he cajoled a subordinate into it.

I wonder if anybody else can forward a case such as Schuck where they end-up with en-mass confirmations of previously unconfirmed "kills". Generally ground witnesses usually do not confirm a claim. Yet, Johannes Wiese had many claims confirmed without witnesses as he often flew alone as the Stab, though I do consider him an honest guy, perhaps he was known to be trusted or had cameras fitted or something. Don't forget that in the East your claim usually came down behind Sowiet lines, and thus could not be investigated. In the west the crash-sites were generally in the position to be investigated, though many of JG 2's were over the sea, and thus impossible to investigate, and they were the JG 5 of the West!

Seems then that Schuck may have lost his last flugbuch anyway. Hopefully it may turn-up someday when somebody clears-out an attic somewhere, but also it would be evidence against the thief, so may have been destroyed.

Kind Regards

Johannes