shoot down ME262
 

When was the first ME262 shoot down behind allied lines, that the Allied intelligence got to explore? I would presume that very few were shoot down behind the lines before the war ended.

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Hi,

From Dan O'Connell. Me 262 Production Log, (2005), p. 45:

"170040 Call sign KI+IT. Me 262 A-2a. ... Lt. Rolf Weidemann of 3./KG 51 was KIA in this aircraft, coded '9K+OL', on 8 September 1944. He was shot down by light British flak 5 miles northeast of Diest, Belgium (or Maastricht, Netherlands) while strafing troops with its two MK 108 cannon at about 500 feet. This was the first Me 262 to be examined by Allied intelligence. Although the airframe was completely destroyed when it crashed into a forest, its engines were recovered and sent to the RAE at Farborough [sic] in the UK for examination ..."

Richard T. Eger, in this source, gives more information:

http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3235

best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Hello,

Following witnesses, one can claim Me 262 a-2a (170013) was shot down by AAA when strafing an US convoy near Banneux (B) on the 10th September 1944 at the Liberation. Oblt. Werner GÄRTNER (3./KG(J) 51) crash-landed successfully but was shot without trial. He is still missing.

This crash was surely investigated by allied troops but any mention in reports.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: shoot down ME262
 

There's mention in the Deutsche Volksbund war graves database either. Jan Horn's book »Das Flurschaden-Geschwader« has Gärtner down as wounded ("Verl.") but in Ultra there is the following:

On 17/10 GELIP (Luftgau) V, IA Op. 1, issued a circular reporting the following a/c as missing:
… Me 262, 9K+LL, Works No. 170013, pilot Obltn. GAERTNER, belonging to Detachment EDELWEISS, took off on 19/9 from RHEINE to operate in the LIEGE area.

That date could well be incorrect because Luftflotte 3 recorded one aircraft of Einsatzkdo. Schenck missing on the 10th whereas no jet losses are reported for the 19th.

P.S. KG 51 was not among the bomber units converted to a KG(J), it remained a plain KG until the end of the war.

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Thanks Nick.

Being not involved in that search, I was told the 262 strafed the US column (at the Liberation of Liège area) and, 'in retaliation', angry soldiers murdered the pilot which was seen as 'highly decorated'. He was last seen walking, under guard, toward a wood not far from the crashsite...

ClinA-78

Re: shoot down ME262
 

This question now leads into the question when did the Allies interrogate their first jet pilot pow? It would be interesting to what they learned!

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Hi,

Surprisingly, the earliest incident of the capture of a shot-down Me 262 pilot I could find was on 21 April 1945 when the pilot in Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 501221 'yellow 3' was shot down by U.S. ground troops near Kloetze.

That would make the defection of test-pilot Hans Fay in the newly-built, unpainted Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 111711 from Schwabisch-Hall to Rhein-Main on 31 March 1945 the earliest chance for the Allies to debrief a Me 262 pilot. Below is the summary of Hans Fey's [sic] debriefing.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Im...LOTDEBRIEF.pdf

However, I am hoping that a member has an example of an earlier capture.

P.S. I have just found a source that says Ofw. Helmut Buchner somehow escaped "uncaptured" on 21 April. My mistake.

Jim

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Correction: His name, of course, is Hermann Buchner. The source of the new information is the 10th post in:

http://ehangar.com/forum/work-critiq...legener-sieger

Jim

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Hello
there is nothing on that in Buchner's memoirs (Stormbird), according to that book during his last combat sortie he was attacked by a RAF Mustang while making an emergency landing on Rothenburg an der Wimme because of lack of fuel. The Me 262 Yellow 3 W.Nr. 501221 burned out. The date is given as 8 April 45 in the text and as about 25 April in the caption of the colour profile of the Yellow 3 W.Nr. 501221. Buchner's Flugbuch for April 45 was stolen By US troops after the war, so the date isn't sure.

Juha

Re: shoot down ME262
 

BTW the Me 262 shot down on 28 Nov 1944 near Helmond mentioned by Eger in LWAG thread was shot down by 2875 LAA Sqn / RAF Regiment deployed on the a/f at Helmond according to Through Adversity The History of the Royal Air Force Regiment by Kingsley M Oliver.

Juha

Re: shoot down ME262
 

From O'Connell, Me 262 Production Log, (2005), p. 182:

501221 Me 262 A-1a.This 3./JG 7 (or 11./JG7) aircraft was lost on 21 April 1945 while strafing Allied troops. It was shot down by Pfc. Ralph V. Caputo of C. Battery, of the 559th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion, 19th Anti-Aircraft Group, near Klotze (Gardelegen/Stendall), Germany with a MG 51 machine gun. The unnamed pilot was captured ...

Jim

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Thanks Jim
so the pilot wasn't Buchner and during his last combat sortie Buchner didn't fly 501221. Reading the caption again it doesn't claim explicity that Buchner was flying 501221 during his last combat sortie, only tells the story of his last sortie and adding that the Yellow 3 was "probably the most colourful aircraft he ever flew..". So my bad. From the facimile pages of his logbooks it seems that he flew Me 262 nr. 3 only once up to 31 March 45.

Juha

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Thanks Juha,

I was also confused about Buchner flying 501221.

Jim

Re: shoot down ME262
 

A bit OT but because I brought the text of Buchner's memoirs here I looked the case of his last combat sortie more carefully and here are some facts which shows that there are some problems with the info given in his memoirs, at least in its English edition.

According to the English edition of Buchner’s memoirs (Hikoki 2000) he was attacked during landing by a RAF Mustang. The soldiers at the tower had identified the attacker as a Mustang and the endnote 56 says “Believed to be an RAF Mustang from either 130 or 403 Squadron.” which is odd because both mentioned sqns were equipped with Spits, Mk XIVs and XVIs respectively, at that time. It is perfectly possible that the soldiers at the tower confused Spit and Mustang, especially if the Spit had clipped wings but it is odd that in the book they didn’t correct the confusion. And anyway I cannot find suitable RAF/RCAF/PAF etc claim for the Buchner case.
And according to http://relikte.com/rotenburg/index.htm the Rotenburg airfield was occupied on 22 April 1945 by British troops, so the date given in the caption is too late.

Juha

Re: shoot down ME262
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...p?t=18111.html

Jim

Re: shoot down ME262
 

Hello Jim
thanks for the hint but I’m with Steve Brew in this, IMHO the distance between Rotenburg and Neuruppin is too big and there is over 90 degree difference in direction from Celle from where 41 Sqn operated at the time.

BTW a wonderful source on the LW a/fs is deZengs’s excellent Luftwaffe Airfields 1938-45 http://www.ww2.dk/lwairfields.html

Juha