Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

this is my compilation of Italian aircraft and their top aces, enjoy:

• Fiat CR.32: Joaquin Garcia-Morato y Castano (Spanish), 36,5 kills of a total of 40,5
• Fiat CR.42: Mario Visintini, 16,83 kills of a total of 17,83
• Fiat G.50: Oiva Tuominen (Finnish), 16 kills of a total of 35
• Fiat G.50bis: Spiridione Guiducci, 5 kills of a total of 5
• Macchi M.5: Orazio Pierozzi (WW1), 6 kills of a total of 7
• Macchi M.C.200: Vittorio Minguzzi, 9,58 kills of a total of 18,17
• Macchi M.C.202: Teresio Martinoli, at least 16+4 shared of a total of 22+14 shared
• Macchi M.C.205: Luigi Gorrini, 14 kills of a total of 19
• Reggiane Re.2001: Agostino Celentano, 6 kills of a total of 7

Any additions/corrections/opinions are welcome. I'm particularly interested in the definite M.C.202 score of Martinoli.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Michael,
I love your posts dealing with the aircraft types & aces' scores!
I am just wondering wouldn't it be better to call things "Victory" rather than "Kill" or maybe "Destroyed". I know so many instances where aircraft was blowing up even in mid-air but pilot survived...
Just my 2 cents!

BTW are there any of Italian Aces that flew later Fiat models?

Best,
Miloš

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Miloš,

"kill" is the usual translation of the German word "Abschuss", literally "shoot-down".
"victory" is the usual translation of the German word "Luftsieg", literally "aerial victory".
Unfortunately, there is no German translation for the English word "claim".
I chose "kill" because it's the shortest word of these ;-)

As far as I know the Fiat G.55 didn't produce aces but I would be glad to be proven wrong.

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello :)
I understand clearly why you write kill. (I like to call it that way too but I know I am wrong and I rarely ever write about victories and losses). "Shot" could be another option. It takes equal amount of finger work over keyboard and is good match to Abshuß

On-topic: It's pity that one of the most beautiful a/c in WWII didn't give us any of the aces. It came too late and too small numbers, I suppose to make any real impact.

Regards,
Milos

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Miloš,

it annoys me too, when cool airplanes didn't produce an ace (Fokker E.V, Bristol Bulldog, Messerschmitt Me 163).

You may know that the most famous Fiat G.55 is Giovanni Bonet (8 confirmed victories).

Have you ever come across the complete dates and decimals of Teresio Martinoli's shared kills ?

Have a nice Sunday evening,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Don't forget the Re.2000. The most successful pilot of the type was Hungarian Imre Pánczél, who scored four confirmed and one unconfirmed kills with the type in 1942 (it is possible, that his unconfirmed kill was later upgraded and was confirmed - later he scored two additional kills with a Bf 109 to reach the acedom for certain)

The details are available in my Hungarian aces book:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45222
(sooner or later it will be available in English too).

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Michael, how many 'kills' did Bonet achieve in the G.55? The only information I have on this is a shared 'kill' on the date of his death.
AFAIK the highest ranking Italian ace who flew the G.55 is Ugo Drago, no claims made. Would you agree?
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Michael, I think Luigi Gorrini also flew the G.55 with no claims made.
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Csaba,

I though Pánczél had three kills in the Reggiane and four kills in the Messerschmitt (?)
http://www.cieldegloire.com/008_panzel.php

Hello Peter,

Bonet had only one kill in the Fiat G.55, I think. But I'm not absolutely sure.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Bonet
Gorrini and Drago may have flown the G.55 but they made no claims in it.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_gorrini.htm
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_drago.htm

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

This erroneous info comes from Punka's Osprey book.
Pánczél claimed a Soviet fighter in early August and scored three confirmed and one unconfirmed (probably later upgraded to confirmed) kills against Il-2s at the end of October, 1942, all with Re.2000. He later scored two additional Il-2s with a Bf 109 on 16 December, 1942.
Everything about him (life, combat career, air and ground claims, including several named opponents, awards, etc) are described in great detail in my Hungarian aces book (on pages 251-258).

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Csaba

Just curious. Why does Punka say four claims on 16.12.1942 if he only made two? Are the remaining Hungarian archives hard to read or is there some kind of dispute here?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

On that day, the Hungarian Bf 109 fighter bombers claimed four Il-2s, two by Pánczél and Bánlaky each. There are no conflicting details on the number of claims (albeit many other details are missing), two of them were claimed by him and two were confirmed to him. My aces book contains the most detailed description of these claims, which was ever published. I also published a original 1:500.000 Luftwaffe map of the greater area, where Pánczél scored his two kills on that day (I have a fine set of original wartime air maps, a number of different ones were used to create the book).

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Thanks Csaba

Can we hope for a sooner rather than later translation of your book into English? :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Dear Csaba&Co,

I'm looking forward to the English version of your book, too.

Can anybody tell me what aircraft type Giulio Torresi was flying on 10Apr43 or how many pilots shared in his three shared kills of that date ?
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_torresi.htm

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

A Reggiane RE 2005 (362° sqd,22° Gr Aut CT)

michel

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Michel,

cool. Thank you.
Thus, Torresi has 4+3sh kills in the Reggiane Re.2005 which renders him a possible ace of that type.
Is there any chance to determine how many pilots shared in the three shared kills ?

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Michael.
Where did you get your info for Tuominen G.50 and total kills?
The only info I have is 42+4sh=44 total, 23 in G.50
Cheers
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Good morning Peter,

how do you do ?
The best Tuominen biography I know is from Håkan Gustavsson's website:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/finland_tuominen.htm
Tuominen's Fiat score is 16 [15+2sh] + 1 balloon + 7 probables.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Thanks Michael.
I see the difference is that Biplane Aces have some of the kills listed as probables. I wonder which is more reliable/correct?
Thanks for the info.
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Both are correct. There is a list made just after the Continuation War by the HQ of the FiAF. In it by adding up to every pilot all confirmed, all those accepted by the HQ without witnesses and all those cases accepted by the HQ without witnesses but which from the summer 1943 onwards were confirmed into regiment's/wing's account not into pilot's personal account. In that list Tuomonen has 43 victories. Later researchers had found some more air combat reports on accepted victories (in air combat reports there are markings made during the confirmation process and the ultimate decision) so Tuominen has got some extra victories but in a fairly new book By Keskinen and Stenman, Ilmavoitot/Aeriel Victories (osa 2/Vol 2 2006) the authors are marked the victories in the traditional Finnish AF way and also in the RAF way by marking all those accepted by the HQ without witnesses and all those cases that were confirmed into regiment's/wing's account as probables. So in the book Tuominen's score is given as 47 + 8 damaged and 35+12+8.

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Thanks for the explanation Juha!

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Juha,

yes, thanks for the explanation.

I think, Tuominen's top position among the Fiat G.50 aces is quite secure:

1. Oiva Tuominen 16 [15+2] + 1 balloon + 7 probables in the Fiat G.50
2. Olli Puhakka 13 in the Fiat G.50
3. Nils Trontti 6 in the Fiat G.50
4. Onni Paronen 5,5 in the Fiat G.50

Are there any probables among the G.50 kills of Puhakka, Trontti and Paronen ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Micheal.
I have the Osprey version of the book by Keskinen and Stenman, but it only gives overall total kill figures without specifying probables.
It seems the Biplane Aces site has taken figures from a different version of the book - perhaps the one referred to by Juha. Unfortunately, the only other high scoring biplane ace was Puro, so other than for him there are few or no probables figures.
If someone can provide the probables for each pilot, that would be great!
I personally am interested in -
Juutilainen, Wind, Luukkanen, Lehtovaara, Tuominen (we have), Puhakka, Puro (we have), Katajainen, Nissinen, Karhila and Karhunen.
Please note there are other discrepancies too - for example, Ciel de Gloire lists Puro's second kill as a Pe-2 on 12/11/42, but Biplane Aces lists the same as damaged.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Good morning Juha & Peter,

I would be interested in such a breakdown, too.

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello
Håkan has used the newer Keskinen & Stenman books, incl Ilmavoitot/Aerial Victories 1 & 2, they are mentioned in the source list e.g. of the Tuominen article. They have Finnish/English texts and captions. The victory listing methods of the FiAF and the method used in the Ilmavoitot books are explained in the fist six pages of the osa/vol 1.
And
Juutilainen 94 and 10 dam. 76+18+10
Wind 74 ½ and 2 dam. 64 ½+10+2
Puhakka 46 and 10 dam. 41+5+10
Luukkanen 54 and 12 dam. 43+11+12
Lehtovaara 41½ and 10 dam. 24½+17+10
Katajainen 34½ and 6 dam. 30½+4+6
Puro 33 and 3 dam. 31+2+3
Karhila 32 1/4 and 4 dam. 30 1/4+2+4
Karhunen 31 ½ and 3 dam. 27 ½+4+3
Nissinen 30 1/3 and 3 dam. 28 1/3+2+3

Eero "Lekkeri" Kinnunen 22½ and 2 dam. 22½+0+2 as an extra, just because he was an interesting person

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Thank you very much for the information Juha! This is very much appreciated, even if it has messed up my ace listings!
I take it all the figures all read - confirmed + probables + damaged.
Most are as I would have expected, except for Lehtovaara, whose probables make up almost half of the total claims attributed to him. A very high proportion.
But this causes me a problem. Would it be too much to ask if you could do just 3 more for me -
Vesa (29+3sh), Alakoski (28) and Jarvi (25+1sh)?
Either of these 3 may have more confirmed kills than Lehtovaara (24.5).
THANKS!
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

But one must remember that the lack of witness not necessarily meant that a claim could not be accepted, e.g. Tuck’s 2+0+1 Bf 109s on 21 June 1941 was accepted without any witness. IIRC Barkhorn got victories accepted without witness testimonies because he was such a reliable claimer and IIRC it seems that he was worth of that trust. IIRC later that became more common in the LW.

Also those claims counted as accepted by the HQ without witnesses had went through the confirmation process and accepted, some of them were real victories some were not but higher percentace of those were unfounded than of those with witness(es).

The main reason of the change of the FiAF’s system was that the share of unwitnessed claims increased and the HQ was worried on the possibility of the reduced reliability of the claims, which seems to have been justifiable. But that wasn’t the only reason for the change. Especially after the arrival of the first Bf 109s and the establishment of the LLv 34 as the Bf 109 unit led to intensive competition for kills, e.g. hunting I-153s of the VVS KBF over Lavansaari in spite of the heavy Soviet AA over the island. The HQ tried to stop that with orders and making claim acceptance stricter but with a little success. it correctly decided that the results were not worth of the risks to the meagre resources of the FiAF even if e.g. the CO of the LLv 34 (Luukkanen) opposed the actions of the HQ, he thought that the restrictions damped the offensive spirit of his pilots which he saw as an essential ingredient of successful fighter pilots. When nothing else helped, the HQ declared certain areas with powerful Soviet AA as no-go areas for fighters and informed that no claims over those areas would be accepted.

After all that bla-bla here is what was asked (and yes, conf+prob+dam)
Vesa 30 ½ and 1 dam 28 ½+2+1
Alakoski 28 and 3 dam 22+6+3
Järvi (note the dots above the a) 25 ½ and 2 vaur 23 ½+2+3 (but Järvi’s claims are more problematic than those of Alakoski)

Juha

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Juha, thank you again for your most informative and helpful reply. The bla-bla is most welcome.
I know that some of the probables will be right, and some not. The difficulties in determining that are too numerous to overcome - loss of records, no time to spot a/c crash, no witness, no ground or enemy confirmation, unreliable claimer, and so on. I generally pay some regard to the probables claims when "ranking" the aces, but as a rule of thumb might allocate 1 in 3 or 1 in 2.
It is very interesting to learn how the scoring variations developed. Simply not accepting claims from dangerous areas seems an excellent final solution to a difficult problem to me.
Oh, and I haven't worked out how to do the special characters for umlaut etc in this forum.
Thank you again
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Dear Juha,

Peter is right, your explanations are excellent.
I'm always keen on indentifying top-aces-by plane.
Can you tell me if Wind or Juutilainen has more Brewster kills when probables are not counted ?

Have a nice Friday,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Yes, that would be interesting to know. I have 3 Osprey books with info on the Finns (Buffalo Aces, Finnish Aces, Lelv24), and while they are generally reasonable for info, NONE of them has any detail on probables.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hey Michael, I'll bet Wind will still have more than Eino. Their scores are 39 and 34 respectively. Wind has 10 probables, Eino 18, so even if ALL Wind's probables are in B239s, he is left with 29. That means only 6 of Eino's 18 need to be in B239s before he falls behind again.
Cheers!

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Peter
the reason probably is that the official FiAF kill list put together by the HQ of the FiAF didn't use probables, all those different categories were counted as accepted victories to the pilots, also those officially put into regiment's account. This system with probables is probably created by Stenman in order to differentied those claims with withness from those without withness. That can be done by going through the air combat reports from which one can see the confirmation process and its conclusion. But in fact the lack of witness not necesarily meant that the claim was reduced to probable in the RAF. I already mentioned Tuck's two Bf 109s on 21 June 41. Also I think that e.g. most of Kuttelwascher's confirmed victories were accepted without witness because of the nature of the circumstances, night intruder attacks over France while flying Hurricane IIc, of his later claims. Also in the LW the claims were sometimes accepted without witness.

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Michael and Peter
there are six accepted without witness cases amongst Juutilainen's B-239 kills, seven amongst Wind's.

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Thank you for the details Juha.
Yes, I understand that claims with lack of witnesses are sometimes accepted, and at times circumstances can be such that there are or can be no witnesses. But if there is no witness and there is no other confirmation, then we are left with a probable. Depending on the pilot, some might be less probable than others (Welter and some others spring to mind here). I would imagine when you are in a melee, you only get split seconds to gain an impression on how much damage your hits have caused, and you probably haven't got the time or space to watch what happens after that. But simple things like a Me109 making lots of black smoke when under full power convinced many Brits they'd scored a kill.
My general impression is that the Finns were pretty reliable, so I would have little difficulty in accepting most or all the probables are actual victories.
Thanks again for all your time and information!
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Peter
Yes, that is true IMHO in all AFs. With diffferent confirmation systems one can get better reliability but all systems are man-made and so can be circumvented by a man. Also culture played its part but in the end its up to the individual

We might have been fairly reliable but we also had our "problem children".

Juha

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Interesting. Regarding the suspected 'problem children', in the top 15 or so are they possibly those with a large proportion of probables? Lehtovaara, Tuominen, even Juutilainen?
The Aces information I have lists, in some cases, victories from various sources. I haven't noticed any large fluctuations in the numbers from those various sources - that is, they all appear to come up with a very similar total.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Hello Peter
unfortunately not so simple, none of those three. Even Tuominen with all his stories and leg-pullings was a fairly reliable in his claims. At least a partial answer to your question can be found from Ilmavoitot/Aeriel Victories vols 1 & 2 by Keskinen and Stenman.

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Ali D'Italia 10 Fiat G 55 mentions the claims made by G 55 pilots it looks like the possible top claimer on this aircraft was Lt Osvalado Bartolozzi

27 Aug 43 B-17
29 Aug 43 P-38

As for the ANR period there is not enough info in this book claims made but pilots not identified

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Good morning James,

thanks for your post which returns to the initial topic.
The current Italian aircraft top ace list looks like this:

• Fiat CR.32: Joaquin Garcia-Morato y Castano (Spanish), 36,5 kills of a total of 40,5
• Fiat CR.42: Mario Visintini, 16,83 kills of a total of 17,83
• Fiat G.50: Oiva Tuominen (Finnish), 23 kills of a total of 46
• Fiat G.50bis: Spiridione Guiducci, 5 kills of a total of 5
• Fiat G.55: Osvalado Bartolozzi, 2 kills of a total of 6+1 shared
• Macchi M.5: Orazio Pierozzi (WW1), 6 kills of a total of 7
• Macchi M.C.200: Vittorio Minguzzi, 9,58 kills of a total of 18,17
• Macchi M.C.202: Teresio Martinoli, at least 16+4 shared of a total of 22+14 shared
• Macchi M.C.205: Luigi Gorrini, 14 kills of a total of 19
• Reggiane Re.2000: possibly Imre Pánczél, 4-5 kills of a total of 7
• Reggiane Re.2001: Agostino Celentano, 6 kills of a total of 7
• Reggiane Re.2005: possibly Giulio Torresi, 4+3 shared of a total of 10+10 shared

I'm still very interested in the decimals of Martinoli's and Torresi's shared kills and in the confirmation status of Pánczél's fifth Re.2000 claim.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Italian aircraft and their top aces
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I just finished working through Brian Cull's marvellous "249 at Malta" which is highly recommendable to all because of its wealth of information presented in a very delightful style.
https://www.amazon.de/249-Malta-Top-...s=249+at+malta
On page 20/21 it is suggested that on 4Sep1941 Franco Lucchini was part of a group of 30 pilots who jointly claimed 16 kills (although only 8 RAF machines took part in the fight).

Mr Gustavsson's website offers a further 33 shared kills (2 SCW and 31 WW2), 6 of which lack the number of pilots involved.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_lucchini.htm
I wonder if it's possible to identify the dates and decimals of all of Lucchini's 52 shared WW2 kills.

Cheers,

Michael