He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Were any He219s shot down in aerial combat or lost on operations on this date?

regards

Keith

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hi Keith,

the only nightfighter loss on this date that i have is :
Bf110 G-4 Wn 740148 IV/NJG1 near Tirlemont after combat

Alessandro

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Keith, in Roland Kemp's book on the He219 he lists no losses in April.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Many thanks. My thinking was that SL HW McLeod of 443 Sqn claimed a Do217 on this date but some have suggested this was a Bf110 of NJG1 as you suggest. However it seems odd that McLeod and WC JE Johnson both misidentified his claim as a Do217. Both were experienced pilots and McLeod identified a second claim for a Do217 (an HS293 carrying Do217M of KG100?) two months later. While the tail configuration of the BF110 and Do217 is similar the Bf110 is much smaller in length and wingspan than the Dornier.

The pilots got a good view of the aircraft before it crashed so again its surprising they could not see it was a Bf110, a type they would have been familiar with but perhaps not encountered.

My thinking is that perhaps it was the much larger He219 (a type much used by NJG1) which does resemble the Dornier in size and configuration from distance.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hello

Actually there was a written off He219 on 19th April 1944 but this He219 was used for training use in Venlo for 'new' pilots of the I./NJG 1. During the landing this He219 was damaged beyond repair (70%) and there is no link with the Allied claim mentioned.

Best regards, Marcel

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Thanks Marcel. The "DO217" crashed into a garden behind a row of cottages and according to Johnson all the crew baled out too low and were thought killed. Whatever it actually was I cannot see it being a Bf110G because to see the deaths of the unfortunate crew Johnson and his flight must have been close enough to identify the aircraft. I have also noted a detail I missed . The loss of NJG1 Bf110G also does not fit the time, coming as it does at 1355, whereas McLeod claims his victory at 1850.

Best regards

Keith

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hallo,
another very possibility can be a Ju188E-1 lost to enemy fighter in the afternoon of the 19. april 1944 by AusbildungGruppe KG2. The not so usual Ju188 can expain the claim for a Do217.
Ju188E-1 U5+BV 11./KG2, FF fw Werreberger and BF gefr Michalski KIA, gefr Patalog and Vogel WIA
Info from Balke "Luftkrieg in Europa"

Alessandro

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Cheers Alessandro. The Ju188E is a much better fit. The crew compartment and twin radial engines would allow for misidentification. Admittedly the tail configuration is an issue but from a distance the tail shape might have been obscured. Do you have a time and location for the loss?

regards

Keith

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hello,

I Think, the name is Werremeyer, Hermann 01.12.1920

KR Rüdiger

Balke KG 2
VDK

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hi All

The IWM has the camera gun footage of S/L McLeod attacking an Bf110 with wing tanks on the 19-4-44, well that's what it looks like to me. I did a search for 443 Sqn gun camera and you can view it on line although I could only watch it on my PC.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Returning to this subject. The Ju188E-1 is a nice fit for a Do217M but revisiting this there are problems (apart from the absence of a time). The Ju88E-1 had a distinctive tail, familiar to McLeod when he attacked Ju88s in Malta, and Johnson's first aerial victory was against a Do17 in 1941. A mistake by these two seems unlikely. The evidence. The Do217 is more likely (a type that Johnson - whose eyesight is remarked by other pilots- may have encountered over Dieppe in 1942). Neither Johnson (or probably all of his pilots) had encountered the Bf110 in combat and so there's an argument there but it is much smaller than the Do217. McLeod broke off his attack at (he states) 100 yards when he must have been able to identify his opponent. A quality he showed in Malta. I still believe it was a Do217 (a type he identified correctly a few weeks later). But the Ju188E is a strong contender....despite the tail, and VERY pointed wings of the Ju188E-1. However several staffels of KG-2 was still flying the Do217M-1 as late as September 1944, therefore...

K

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hi Keith

I hope this link works, copy and paste this :-
© IWM CGA 485~563
It should take you to the the 2nd TAF Gun Camera film at the IWM, Scroll through to the 19th and you will see the film which clearly shows an ME 110 G night fighter.

Regards Tempest

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Definitely an Me110

Martin

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Spot on Tempest :). It is definitely a Me110G! How McLeod and others failed to see that is weird. Johnson had encountered the Bf110 in 1943. It's so close that it could not be anything else.

Many thanks to you and the others who chipped in with suggestions.

Best regards

Keith

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

It does make you wonder what Peter Jackson's restoration technology could do with those films.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

I would say the Bf110 G-4 Wn 740148 of IV/NJG1 shot down on a transfer flight near Tirlemont is the aircraft in the film. As regards the miss identification, we don’t know if any of the pilots were suffering suffering from fatigue or if the combat was very quick as I can imagine they didn’t want to hang around. Can’t imagine what the visibility was like from the cockpit of a Spitfire over enemy territory must’ve been quite stressful on occasions to put it mildly.
IWM RAF Camera gun film available on line is very interesting and brings home the reality of air combat and ground attack.

Regards Tempest.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

A fair point but McLeod was on the tail of this Me110 for several seconds as he pressed his gun button and watched it fall to the ground for several further seconds.

Like the rest of the pilots had only just returned to action after more than a year of instructing (most of the squadron had never been in action). I'm not sure that stress would be an issue especially given the time McLeod had to attack the Me110 (apparently without facing return fire). They hung around to watch it crash. Was the pilot alone? I can't remember if parachutes were seen.

I assume the camera gun film was shown to the pilots (they were flying from an airfield in the UK) after it was developed. So it's just poor aircraft recognition by pilots and I/O.

best regards

Keith

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Hi Keith

Yes agreed.

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

Recognizing other aircraft was a big problem, along with what is erroneously called "friendly fire." There's nothing friendly about having your own people shooting at you. I recall a Luftwaffe pilot saying, "Our own flak shot at us all the time."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16543238574...Bk9SR46M_5fcYg

Those who have never been in combat cannot know all the particulars.

"Our own flak shot at us all the time."
 

Well as we know a German said to his British captors " When the RAF fly over, we duck. When the Luftwaffe fly over, you duck. When the Americans fly over EVERYBODY ducks" :)

I recall a Luftwaffe pilot saying, "Our own flak shot at us all the time."

I am sure if he could, George Preddy would echo your observation. "Butch" O'Hare too....

The pilots of 74 Squadron RAF had at least two incidents where they attacked RAF aircraft. Douglas Bader was probably shot down by a fellow allied pilot.

However in this case it's surprising that the Bf110 is not recognised.

K

Re: He219 loss 19 April 1944?
 

If you want to talk about friendly fire, there’s along-running thread on the subject: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=friendly+firehttp://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=friendly+fire