Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Gents,

Are their any available / published production figures for He177s produced at Eger-Cheb? If so, does similar data exist on their S-kenn and Werknummerserie?

I note that in one published photo from this site, the number "770003" is visible beneath the Plexiglas entrance hatch for the rear ginner position at the tail. A possible clue?

In advance, many thanks,

David

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

I think it was possibly only assembly.

Project 1041 was started in late 1936 from Bomber A specification. Led by Technical Director Hertel, but designed by the Gunther brothers. Following eight initial prototypes an total of about 1,153 He 177 A series machines were built by the Arado/Warnemunde factory and the Heinkel at Rostock/Marienehe & Oranienburg factories. Production started in late 1941 and extending to October 1944.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Ed,

So in other words, these machines were essentially pre-identified (fuselage), with this and required components and sub-assemblies all shipped to Eger-Cheb where they were assembled?

Many thanks,

David

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Not all numbers painted on parts were actual W.Nr, lots of component numbers found on components at service center in France. Never heard of any Cheb production.
Only those already posted.
"770003" might be 0177 0003 (not six digit secret code) but V3 / 0003
no ""77xxxx" series in my list, but its not that much of a list.
Nothing to write home about.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

For Eger I just find references to aircraft repair, component production (fuselages and/or wings for several Heinkel aircraft). They also upgraded He 177s and/or rebuilt early He 177 A-3 into the later A-3 with lengthened fuselage and forward-moved engines (+ strengthened wings?).
In many publication you may find this rebuild work as "He 177 production".

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Yes, tonight saw He 177 A "tails and fuselages" (possibly repair of wings or parts) coming from PZL Mielec (transport structure marked as owed by Mietec in Intel reports from France). This was already from 1942, but is not "producton" per se.

In RAF intel file appears this:
5439 He 177 F8+BM
5442 He 177 GJ+RD / F8+BN
5455 He 177 F8+DP
535565 He 177 A-3/R2 GP+WC

Large part painted serial numbers:
30009 (1014)
30011
30012
30013

431007 / 432007 (twice each)
432022 Fuselage nose
433120

hky =
mkw = inside cockpit
jhf 526
jhf 515

Arado Wittenberg

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

AFAIR Mielec was a major component factory for Heinkel Rostock/Oranienburg. I saw it often mentioned regarding He 219 fuselages.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Gents,

Sorry for the delay in expressing my thanks for your comments. I did stumble upon the same general information in one of the JaPo books regarding the `conversion`function of the Eger-Cheb facilities, though without the detail you both provided.

Thanks again,

David

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Post 6 GP+WC
according source Heinkel He177, 277, 274 from Joachim Dressel / Manfried Griehl
this is WNr.535353

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

I have checked the RLM Aircraft programmes No. 222, 223, 224, 225, 226 and 227 and have found no evidence that the He 177 series production were produced by anyone else than Arado Brandenburg (ArB) and Heinkel Oranienburg (HWO). Some conversion work was undertaken by DLH Tempelhof (DLHT) and the following abbreviated company names not 100% certain to me: GHF/LBG, RWE, FWE, EHF/LBG. I believe EHF is abbreviated for Ernst Heinkel Flugzeugwerke Marienehe (Rostock)
Can anyone help out here.

I have the following He 177 series production (excluding prototypes and pre-production series):
He 177A-1 130 all delivered by ArB
He 177A-3 159 all delivered by ArB
He 177A-3 88 all delivered by HWO
He 177A-3 188 all delivered by ArB with Kehl III installations
He 177A-3 30 all delivered by ArB with Kehl IV installations
He 177A-5 70 all delivered by HWO
He 177A-5 279 all delivered by ArB with Kehl V installations

Included in the figures above is the following conversions:

He 177A-0/A-1 12 aircraft converted to Zerströrers by EHF

He 177A-1 34 aircraft converted by EHF/LGB with Kehl III

Some aircraft were converted from old A-3 standard to new A-3 standard by DHLT, RWE and FWE.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Yes, ArB was indeed main assembly for He 177s (in numbers assembled). Allied Air Recon photos confirm the type there dispersed (images below are smaller than I saw). But as Arado FW originally comes from Rostock-Warnemunde there might be confusion there. Main thing is that ArB was ordered out of Ju 88 (wings) program into He 177s in 1942.

LFP only list assembly locations, not "actual production sites" (apologies for stressing that Production is not same as Production, term tends be used for assembly sites as well) . There is still yet to make a book that covers this correctly.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_Flugzeugwerke
http://www.8thafhs.com/maps.php?lat=...et_notes=Arado

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

RWE and FWE should be Reparaturwerk/Flugzeugwerk Eger (AFAIR former Letov factory)
EHF/Lbg. and GHF/Lbg. may be the same (typo in the latter?)

The production numbers at german wiki differ from Seaplanes numbers, they also separate non-Kehl A-3 into "alter" and "neuer Bauzustand", the latter is, from my understanding, the lengthened fuselage and forward-moved engines.

Was there a Heinkel facility in LeBourget ?

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

He 277 IIRC

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

As far as I know the Eger-Cheb facility only re-built older air-frames. The new W/Nr. in the 770000 seems to have been adopted and in at least one case the old W/Nr. was added also. I have seen an old photo of a rear fuselage at Eger Flugzeugwerke where the old W/Nr.5041 was written below the new one 770002. Sorry cannot find this or the the source of the publication.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Interestingly, my data shows over 7,300 DB610 engines built. That was quite an expensive project, with limited success.

OAP

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Schwarze-man: do you happen to know the annual split of DB610's produced by DB Genschagen? The other producer was Bussing, and I have the Bussing figures, but have never seen the DB production split.

Thanks and best regards,
Juha

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Is this book useful and accurate?


http://www.christian-schmidt.com/pro...oducts_id=2585

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Juha,
The figures I have, from the DB records copied by BIOS after the war:
Genshagen DB610 production: 1942-1,088. 1943-1,734. 1944-2,188.
Cheers
SM

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Schwarze,

And thanks a lot!

So, the total DB610 output would be as follows:

Year-DBGen-Bussing-Total
1942-1088-241-1329
1943-1734-425-2159
1944-2188-445-2633
Total-5010-1111-6121

This would be good for ~3000 He177's (without reservation for any spares), and for over 2000 a/c with 1/3rd reservation for spares. At least for me, this seems to be somewhat too much.

As for the Bussing numbers, they come from one of the USSBS -reports and are for the amount of coupled DB605-units (that is DB610-units). I wonder if the BIOS-report counts are for the DB605's allocated for the DB610 -units, and thus should be actually divided by two?
That would give roughly 3000 engines, which would be good for roughly 1000 a/c (which was the amount of DB610-engined A-3's and A-5's) with 1/3rd reservation for spares. Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Juha

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

A bit less than 400 pcs He177 hv been delivered by end of 1943, nd planned till 06-46 are 2500 more pcs
By june 44, a bit more than 1000 hv been delivered nd only 137 pcs are still to be del. f. the year end.
All material hv been prepared for well before ...

Rémi

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Juha!

The BIOS report was compiled from DB records at Unterturkheim. They refer to the DB610 specifically as "610=2x605 coupled". I would expect that the figures quoted are exactly as recorded by DB. The other figures for the 610 production are Niedersachsische Motorenwerke: 1942-482, 1943-850, 1944-970.
That gives totals:
1942-1570, 1943-2584, 1944-3158. Grand total, 7,312.

I guess a review of the actual DB archiv would be one way to try and confirm the record.
Best wishes,
SM

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Schwarze,

Thanks for the additional data.

But, here I noticed something odd...

The Bussing (NAG) factory is actually the very same as Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH:
https://www.deutsche-digitale-biblio...VSVRT766GXMIHH

Here it also says Bussing (or Niedersächsische MW) produced a total of 15.872 aero-engines between 1939 and 1944:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieder...e_Motorenwerke

This total is also verified by the USSBS -report, that I have. And there the DB610 -numbers are "halved" from the DB605 -numbers, see:

Your data shows for the Nied.MW:
1942-482
1943-850
1944-970

These are exactly "doubles" to my data on Bussing (from the ultra-detailed USSBS), except for the last year. But you see the pattern:
1942-241
1943-425
1944-445

Best Regards,
Juha

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Hi Juha!
I have carefully listed the name and the numbers exactly how they are recorded in the BIOS report to avoid confusion.:) There is not an exact "doubling", the 1944-445 doubles as 890, not the 970 but, the other figures are spot-on. I am not able to shed more light on this. However, I know the two component engines in the DB610 are listed as the 605W and 605X. It would be interesting to know how the DB610 production was accounted. I expect that the 605 component engines would have had separate identities (werke-nummer) but, the DB610-as a completed unit- would surely have also had its own werke-nummer. Sorry I don't have better information on this.
Best wishes
SM

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

I have found a book that may help.

NMW Braunschweig - Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH Braunschweig-Querum. Büssing NAG. by Fischer, E.

Archive of the city of Salzgitter, 1st edition 2012. 216 pages, Unz. Fig., Hardcover, very good condition, 21.5 x 30.5 cm.
Contents: The aeronautical defense industry, the founding and legal forms of Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH, the development of the plant, the structural development of plant facilities, the description of the Kameradschaftshaus, the buildings from 1992 to 1995, the workforce and vocational training, the workforce from 1935 to 1939 , The workforce from 1939 to 1945, The workforce from 1945 until the dissolution of the factory, The use of foreign labor, Foreign labor camps, Housing for the workforce, Vocational training, Military students / apprentices, Products and production, Aircraft engine construction 1938, The production before the Second World War, The products during the Second World War, The production program, BMW Aircraft engines, Junkers aircraft engines, Daimler-Benz aircraft engines, The production process, The production in the financial years 1936 to 1946, The Lower Saxony Gerätebaugesellschaft, later BÜSSING-NAG Entwicklungs GmbH, Die Transportgesellschaft mbH, The cooperation with the Technical University in Braunschweig, Conclusion and summary, chronology of the work, Annex, company regulations, table staff structure, references and bibliographical references, illustration proof, list of abbreviations

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Usaaf bombing survey Volume 15 - Bussing NAG Flugmotorenwerke GmbH, Brunswick, Germany (for those who do not have this info)


.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Snautzer,


Are there any references you don't have ? :)

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

I am a bit af a horder, i am afraid ;-)

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Snautzer,
Yes, very nice. Seems to be the same data but with more detail. Particularly interesting 1945 DB605 production detail. I must say, regarding the DB610 production, I assume that the recorded number of engines delivered must surely imply the number of complete double-engines, the heading says "double engine". The 610 was regarded as a single engine unit. Thanks for the post! Do you by any chance have the records for the other DB producing factories in 1945? I would dearly like to update the engine production till May 1945. :)
Best wishes

SM

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Index to records of the United States Strategic Bombing survey. http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/r...3coll8/id/4100

look for SECTION 1. EUROPEAN DOCUMENTS gives a list of files that could be of intrest to you. Pdf is searchable (hit control F for search window)


Also look for possibly lightly related files here: http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu...mbing%20survey especially the oil report



I have these:

1. Interview - Henschel, Oscar May 1945
2. Interview - Messerschmitt, Professor May 1945
3. Interview Kurt Tank May 1945
4. Volume 10 - Focke Wulf Aircraft Plant, Bremen, Germany
5. Volume 14 - Wiener Neustaedter Flugzeugwerke Wiener Neustadt AustriaWiener Neustaedter Flugzeugwerke Wiener Neustadt Austria
6. Volume 15 - Bussing NAG Flugmotorenwerke GmbH, Brunswick, Germany
7. Volume 17 - Bavarian Motor Works, Inc, Eisenach & Durrerhof
8. Volume 18 - Bayerische Motorenwerke AG (BMW), Munich, Germany
9. Volume 6 - Junkers Aircraft and Aero Engine Works, Dessau, Germany
10. Volume 8 - ATG Maschinenbau, GmbH, Leipzig, (Mochau), Germany
11. Volume 9 - Gothaer Waggonfabrik, AG, Gotha, Germany

Only the Bussing NAG Flugmotorenwerke GmbH mentions DB engines Other aero engines are mentioned in a few af the reports.

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Snautzer,
Thank you for the link! I shall try to trawl it!
Best wishes

SM`

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

If you cant find the ones i have, just pm me gladly sent them to you

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

Note that the production figures are taken from DB itselfs see attch 5. Whole rapport can be found here http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/index....a/katalog/1185



http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=580
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=581
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=582
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=583
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...&pictureid=584

Re: Heinkel He177 Eger-Cheb Production
 

I have found a report that mentions the dismantling of the DB610 engines to produce DB605 engines at Bussing. This is dated July 1944.
Best wishes

SM