Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I really look forward to the book of Mister Bykov.
However, it doesn't include Shturmovik aces, does it ?
In STALIN'S FALCONS by Polak I found 4-5 Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills (shared kills counted as decimals):

• Ilya Mospanov, 21 kills plus 16 aircraft on the ground
• Alexei Golimbiyevskii, 12 kills
• Georgii Parshin, 10 kills
• Georgii Popov, 10 kills
• Nikolai Maximov, 6 kills plus 12 shared (indicated as "...probably the highest total claimed by any Soviet assault pilot" by Polak)

Mospanov's total seems hard to believe for me because he was killed in combat already on 25Jul1942 after only 69 sorties.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

We can add:

Vladimir I.Streltchenko=13(1+12 shared)
Otari G.Goltchine=16(4+12 shared)
Victor A.Kondakov=15(5+10 shared)
Otari G.Tchetchelashvili=15(5+10 shared)
Vasilij I.Kozlovskij=12(+68 tanks,530 vehicles,5 locomotives,67 waggons)

michel

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

to add

Yefim A.Mikhalenkov=12

Michel

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hello Michel,

nice you join in.
I did not include Strelchenko and Chechelashvili because I prefer to count shares as decimals.
Is Otari G.Goltchine connected to Ivan Konstantinovich Golchin (2+14 kills) ?
I did not know that Kondakov has also 10 shared kills.
I did not know Vasilij I.Kozlovskij. Impressive record.
It was not my intention to omit Mikhalenkov. Thanks for adding.

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good morning,

I also found Nikolai Chuvin, 11 aerial victories.

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Addendum:
STALIN'S EAGLES gives the following ShAP pilots with 10 kills minimum

• Nikolai Globin, 10 kills
• Mikhail Odintsov, 12 kills
• Alexandr Osipenko, 17+34sh kills
• Nikolai Popov 1+35sh kills
• Mikhail Ryabshevskii, 15 kills

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

...I should not forget the greatest Il-2 pilot of them all.
Aleksandr Jefimov, 5+2sh kills
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/sssr-bomb.html
I just finished working through his biography written by Oleg Rastrenin which was published in AVIONS #163. Highly recommendable !

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Gentlemen,

Wasn't there a topic a few years ago on this forum about how effective the Il-2 Shturmovik was against ground targets and armor? I also never heard of Vasilij I. Kozlovskij and thought his ground kill scores to be questionable.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good morning Edward,

yes, I think it's so much more difficult to tell if a tank that has been hit is "destroyed" or not than it is to define an airkill.
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/sssr-tank.html
Where there any fixed criteria for the former ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

That list of Soviet tank killers was based on Soviet sources and not believed at all by a lot of people of the world. I for one didn't believe that list. Victor Golubjev's vehicle kills of 875 is not right. Very few German tank crews and truck and other vehicle drivers had ever given reports about how effective Soviet ground assault planes were.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good morning Edward,

yes but that's the usual overclaiming issue.
With regard to ground kills I deem it impossible to create verified scores for the ground attack aces.

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good afternoon, Gentlemens.
The same words can be said about H.-U. Rudel and him's 519 tanks and 800 vehicles (0,2 tanks and 0,32 vehicles on mission).
Data about V.M. Golubev is likely distorted information about group victories, not personal (in him's other award documents, almost all mention of the destroyed equipment is made in the context of the actions of his squadron). A specified data - this till August 1943 (at the time of the second "Gold Star").

Data on V.I.Kozlovsky also likely related to his squadron (maybe this group claims of squadron under his command for 6-10 aircraft). As of April 1944 (him's "Gold Star"), he (him's crew) claimed 3 aircraft, 15 tanks and 120 vehicles (0,15 tanks and 1,2 vehicles on mission). Vehicles in the USSR, sometimes it's and carts and individual horses (but sometimes they were divided).

In any case, this does not cancel total overclaiming all ground assault planes.
The loss of Soviet tanks from the actions of the Luftwaffe was also not great - even in 1942, with the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the air and in tank brigades with light tanks (T-60, T-70, M3 Stewart, M3 Lee).

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

P.S:
The usual daily summary during the preparation for the offensive of one of the tank brigades was: "The brigade area was bombed three times in groups of up to 20-27 enemy aircraft - losses: 2 people were killed and 6 people were wounded" (mainly in the motorized infantry battalion).
In the peri-active period of the offensive and the breakthrough of the front line of the same brigade: enemy aviation prevailed in the air - as a result, the infantry could not accompany the tanks and opened the flank. The enemy's artillery (self-propelled and ATA) from the flank disrupted (stopped) 50% of the tanks in the attacking battalions. The retreating infantry allowed to approach the tanks of enemy soldiers who attacked the damaged tanks with bottles of combustible mixture and anti-tank grenades. Result: 2 tanks are irretrievably lost! Attempts to introduce reserves into the battle were also violated by aviation - as a result of the disrupted order of the offensive and retreat of the infantry of escort, the enemy's anti-tank artillery disarmed tanks (infantry without tanks did not go).

Here is the typical tactic of German aviation against the Soviet tank brigades on the defensive - and no "Rudel" (tank-fighters) were needed here.
A similar tactic was also used by Soviet stormtroopers-the disruption of communications and the transfer of troops in the rear, the suppression of infantry and artillery on the front lines, and the damage to aircraft at aerodromes. And the destruction (or often capture) of equipment was carried out by infantry and artillery in the seizure of positions.
Both those and other "battlefield planes" did their job. And in every case there were heroes.
The rest is for high-ranking staff officers who easily rewarded only themselves, as well as their adjutants, staff radio operators, cooks and personal drivers. Those who now like to discuss the plausibility of the claims of that terrible war at the level "I believe / do not believe" remind me those staff officers.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

as a summary I compiled all Il-2 aces gathered so far in this thead
• Aleksandr Osipenko, 17 kills plus 34 shared
• Ilya Mospanov, 21 kills
• Mikhail Ryabshevskii, 15 kills
• Nikolai Popov, 1 kill plus 35 shared
• Alexei Golimbiyevskii, 12 kills
• Vasilij Kozlovskij, 12 kills
• Yefim Mikhalenkov, 12 kills
• Mikhail Odintsov, 12 kills
• Nikolai Chuvin, 11 kills
• Nikolai Maximov, 6 kills plus 12 shared
• Nikolai Globin, 10 kills
• Georgii Parshin, 10 kills
• Georgii Popov, 10 kills
• Victor Kondakov, 5 kills plus 10 shared
• Otari Tchetchelashvili, 5 plus 10 shared
• Otari Goltchine, 4 kills plus 12 shared
• Aleksandr Jefimov, 5 kills plus 2 shared

Can anybody tell me the decimals of the shared kills of Osipenko ?

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

The Il-2 is one of the most crucial warplanes ever but unlike the Bf109, P51, B17 and Spitfire not more than one OSPREY volume has been dedicated to it. I recommend it to all:
https://www.amazon.de/Shturmovik-Gua...s%2C131&sr=8-1
It emphasizes rather its role as a workhorse as not much personal fame was achieved.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Any short biographies for Ryabshevskii, Kozlovskii or Mikhalenkov? I have not found much on these three. I did find some information on Golimbiyevskii, who I understand was flying operations during spring/summer 1942, and on Odintsov, who was wounded in 1941 and then later flew operations with the IL-2.

markr

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hello Mark,

check out this:
http://airaces.narod.ru/all7/rybchevs.htm
http://airaces.narod.ru/all7/kozlovsk.htm
http://airaces.narod.ru/all7/mehalenk.htm

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Many thanks! I was not able to translate to english, but did pick up some details here and there. The one for Kozlovskii was particularly interesting.

markr

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good afternoon Mark,

you find a short biography of Yefim Mikhalenkov in STALIN'S FALCONS by Tomas Polak but none of Kozlovskij or Ryabshevskii.

I wish you a good weekend,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

I have some info on Soviet tanks knocked out by the Luftwaffe.
D.M. Glantz Stalingrad Endgame vol 1 has the 1st Tank Corps part fo the 5th Tank Army
19-22 Nov 42 Operation Uranus had 136 tanks at the start and 24 operational at the end of which he estimates 30-40 knocked out German aircraft (This could include some ARR aircraft in my oppion). approx 40 knocked out by the 22nd Panzer Division and 30-40 broke down mechanical problems. the 1st TC also took some casualties in air raids in the 1-18 nov 42 period.

I will have more comments later.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good morning James,

is it easy to discern from a Ju 87 or Il-2 if a tank that you have attacked is destroyed or not ?

I wish you a good start into the weekend,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

The history or armoured warfare would suggest that tanks thought to be destroyed were very often disabled but could be recovered and repaired. Fire or explosion are probably reliable indicators of destruction. However, a hit that brings a tank to halt although of immediate tactical value — removing an enemy asset from fighting in progress — may not have destroyed it altogether.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

A knocked out tank if recovered can be repaired unless it is burnt out or catstropic kill as they say.

I would say that many Soviet tanks the Luftwaffe destroyed at the battle of Brody in 1941 had either broke down or ran out of fuel. As for the VVS during the Moscow counter offensive during the winter of 1941/42 they probably attacked and claimed knocked out many tanks that were destroyed or lost in the 1941 German offensives.

In reading Glantz's Stalingrad Endgame books there were times where the luftwaffe and ARR did destroy a number of Soviet tanks specificaly during operation winterstorm. They also inflicted some heavy casualties on men and horses of Soviet Cavalry divisions.

In the book Panzer Battles p341 it menions the German 8th Panzer Division taking heavy tank and truck losses do to VVS air attacks on 14 jul 44 on the Zlochuv-Jerierni road.

On the Axishistoryfroum.com in the USSR 1917-1945 section I found a post that lead me to an article on the Churchill in RKKA service. 6 July 43 at Kursk the 36th GHTR had 8 Churchills destroyed 1 of which by air attack.

I may have more.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Some tank killer scores of 100+ are known:

Il-2 Tank Killers
Jefimov, Aleksandr - 126

Stuka Tank Killers
Hans-Ulrich Rudel – 519
Anton Hübsch – 120+
Gerhard Studemann – 117
Alois Wosnitza – 104
Jacob Jenster – 100+
Hendrik Stahl – 100+

Tank Aces (mostly with Tigers)
Kurt Knispel – 168 (126-gunner, 42-commander)
Johannes Bolter – 139
Michael Wittmann – 138 (+132 ATs)
Paul Egger - 113
Heinrich Rondorf – 106 (gunner and commander)
Heinz Gartner – 103 (gunner and commander)
Karl Korner – 102
Balthasar Woll – 101+ (81-gunner, 20+-commander)
Wilhelm Knauth - 101
Albert Kerscher – 100+

Taking your assessment above into consideration, these scores are rather to be taken with a pinch of salt, correct ?

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

From AFV News Jan-Apr 1991 Vol 26 #1
Losses in the Soviet 1823 SPAR Jun-Sep 1944 This unit as a part of the 3rd GMC in Belorussia 25 June 1944 had 8 trucks destroyed by air attack 1 EM KIA 8 WIA 6 Officers WIA.

From my notes from Tigers in Combat Vol II

PD GD Jun44 2 Tigers destroyed by fighter bombers
Oct 44 5 destroyed by a Luftwaffe air strike

Panzer Battles

5 Jul 44 the 48th PK lost many tanks do to the VVS

As for the Panther tanks that were making their combat debut this day it was a disaster. The tanks had numerous mechanical problems, the crews were poorly trained and the units that had them had arrived at the front shortly before the offensive began. The units had 2 of them catch fire on the route march to the front. The units attacked right into a undiscovered Soviet minefield where they were shot up by anti-tank guns and artillery. Later on this day some got stuck in bogs. No record of any of them being attacked by aircraft.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

This is from my notes from Panzertruppen 1943-1945 Thomas Jentz

Panthers operational
5 jul 184
6 jul 166
7 jul 40
8 jul unknown
9 jul 16
10 jul 10
11 jul 30
12 Jul 25
13 jul 43
14 Jul 36

from the book "Steel Inferno" Michael Reynolds

The Panzer Lehr PD 6 June 44 got badly hit by Allied aircraft according to it's commander it had 5 tanks knocked out along with 84 halftracks, prime movers and SP guns. It also lost 40 trucks carrying fuel and 90 others.

A Allied survey of knocked out German tanks in August 1944 Of 44 tanks (34 Panthers and 10 Pz IVs)20 were knocked out by ground fire 7 by rockets 2 by bombs 4 by multiple causes and 11 abandoned or destroyed by there crews.
In another area where the LAH operated near St Barthelemy 17 panthers were found . 6 were knocked out by army weapons 4 by air force rockets, and the rest blown up or abandoned by their crews.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hello James,

hope you have a good weekend.

Do you think there will ever be a OSPREY COMBAT AIRCRAFT volume about the Henschel Hs 129 ? Below you find a list about its most successful pilots.

Cheers,

Michael

Top Hs 129 Tank Killers

• Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer - ~80 (~300 missions on Hs 129)
• Otto Ritz - ~70 (100+ missions on Hs 129)
• Hans-Hermann Steinkamp - ~70 (~300 missions on Hs 129)
• Bruno Meyer - ~50 (~150 missions on Hs 129)
• Franz Oswald – 50 (300+ missions on Hs 129)

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

In looking through warspot.ru tanks section it mentions in some of the articles about RKKA units coming under air attack ect

Battle Battery of the Dead Myth and Reality has the 18th Tank Corps in the period 20-23 Sept 1944 having 21 AFVs destroyed by air attack possibly by 14/SG 4 Hs 129s and 10/SG2 Ju 87G

The Russians had a major problem with tanks breaking down in the 1941-43 period things got somewhat better in 1944-45. I have read that one RKKA officer said one reason they RKKA like the M-4 Sherman and Valentine tanks is they were so mechanically reliable compared to Soviet tanks.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Well, this is a hard question. Between 15-30 September, 1944 the 53rd Army, 18th Tank Corps lost the following combat vehicles:

25 T-34s burned out (including 12 T-34s in AIR ATTACK) from the 110 (markings: '4xx'), 170 ('5xx'), 181 ('6xx') Tank Brigades, but mainly from the 110 Tank Brigade.
15 T-34s KOd
4 SU-85 SPGs burned out
1 SU-85 SPG KOd
5 ISU-122 SPGs burned out (ALL 5 in AIR ATTACK) - 363 GvTSAP
.................................................. .................................

So this is 'only' 17 machines lost in German air attacks in the whole second half of September, not just for September 20-23, 1944.
(Source: ЦАМО, Ф.409, Оп.10057, Д.458, Л.25.)

Gabor

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

The article has the 5 SU-85 SPGs burned out by air attack as well

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

I do not know where that article took that information from. The 18 TK report clearly says that only 4 SU-85s burned out (not 5) and a 5th one was KOd. Since the air strike is mentioned specifically for 12 T-34s and for all five ISU-122s, but nothing for the SU-85s, I think that none of the SU-85s was lost in an air strike. (Otherwise it would have been mentioned in the report as well.)

Gabor

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

The 4 SU-85s burned out near Dombegyháza, Hungary from the 18 TK, 1438 SAP (self-propelled artillery regiment.)

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Ooops! I typed a 5 instead of a 4. Looks like there is a disagreement over who got who.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Good morning Gabor and James,

do you think there will ever be an OSPREY DUEL volume about "Shturmovik vs German tank" ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Perhaps. But this type of research is much more difficult than air vs. air claims. Not because the losses are unknown, but because it is very difficult to match the losses to claimers. Statistically yes, but doing justice among all of the claimers: no. The other thing is that when a plane was shot down, it was a 100% loss, - 100% victory. But a tank could be KOd, disabled, hit, repaired several times before a full write off. Now what? It is not easy. So I can imagine a general book dealing with ground attack warfare, but not to the level of individuals' ground victory lists.

Gabor

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

It'll happen when someone sufficiently interested in the subject — you perhaps? — researches it, submits a proposal to Osprey, gets it accepted, writes about 22,000 words of text and 3,000 words of photo captions and provides 50 photos.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hello Goran,

I think I will acquire "Ju 87D/G STUKA versus T-34" by Robert Forsyth, which was published recently:
https://www.amazon.de/Ju-87D-STUKA-v...ps%2C86&sr=8-1
I have read "Aces of the Legion Condor", "Fw 190 Sturmböcke vs B-17 Flying Fortress"
"Luftwaffe Viermot Aces 1942-1945" and "Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units" by the same author.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

I have a unusual tank loss do to air attack from my notes from the Osprey Crusader Cruiser Tank 1939-1945 David Fletcher

The night of 31 May 1942 Armored train "H" in Canterbury an attached Conventer tank was destroyed by a German bomb during an air raid. This is probably the only Conventer destroyed by enemy action.

My notes have a Ju 88 of KuFlGr 106 shot down by a Beaufighter of 219 sqn this night.

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hello James,

can a tank defend itself against an aerial attack ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 pilots with 10 or more aerial kills
 

Hi Michael,
Shermans could. (To a certain degree with their 0.5 cal.) Soviet M4A2 Sherman even claimed AC victory!
Gabor