War Over The Steppes
 

I've been reading, War Over the Steppes - The Air Campaign on the Eastern Front 1941-45, by E. R. Hooten. It's just as dry as, Eagle in Flames, just as good, and full of fun facts.

Hooten writes about:

(1) The 1941 NKVD Purge of the Red Army - About 300 commanders, including Lieutenant General Klich, Lieutenant General Klyavinsh, and Major General Chernykh, who were executed on October 16, 1941, during the Battle of Moscow. On October 28, twenty more were summarily shot near Kuybyshev, including Colonel Generals Loktionov and Shtern, Lieutenant Generals Arzhenukhin, Proskurov, Smushkevich, and Rychagov (with his wife.) 46 more, including 17 generals, notably: Lieutenant Generals Pumpur, Alekseyev, Gusev, Trubetskoy, Klyonov, Selivanov, Major General Schacht, and People's Commissar of Ammunition Sergeyev, were executed on February 23, 1942.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purge_...d_Army_in_1941

Most of the top leadership of the VVS had been arrested and were awaiting execution by A-Tag +10.

(2) The suicide of VVS Gen-major Ivan Kopets on 23 June, 1941 (the day after A-Tag) because reporting bad news was going to result in joining group 1.

(3) The arrest of VVS Gen-major Aleksei Ionov, and most of the Northwest Front VVS staff on 25 June, 1941 (A-Tag +3,) for having (and reporting) bad news. (All were executed on 23 February, 1942.)

(4) The arrest of VVS Gen Dimitrii Pavlov, on 30 June, 1941 for having (and reporting) bad news. (Executed on 22 July, 1941.)

(5) The arrest in late June, 1941 (and later executions on 23 February, 1942) of VVS Gen-major Nikolai Laskin and VVS Gen-lt Yevgenii Ptukhin for having (and reporting) bad news.

And then there is this: "On 31 July, 1941 (*about 40-days after the start of Operation Barbarossa) the VVS staff calculated that 5,240 aircraft were 'unaccounted losses.'" (Meaning: the Germans had destroyed them, but the Russians were afraid to report it because of 1-5 above.) *Emphasis mine.

Given all of the above, does anyone actually trust Russian reports when it comes to calculating...anything?

Bronc

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello Broncazonk,

It is a great simplification to explain a huge number of "unaccounted losses" in June-July 1941 by items (1)-(5) in your post.
The problem was in the unimaginable collapse and chaos during the first weeks of "Barbarossa". Entire armies had disappeared in encirclements with all their manpower, armament etc ... and with the papers of course.

It isn't exclude some instantaneous false reports of course but in less apocalyptic situation the regular routine documentation about aircraft inventory reflected the reality correctly anyway - among other things simply because it was easy to check.

After restoring of the order the account became reliable (with lists of the factory numbers of planes and their motors - combat ready, in repair, lost etc), with many cross references and comments. At least for my point of interest now (year 1943) the picture of VVS inventory, losses etc is far, far more clear than the same points for Luftwaffe.

"Eagle in Flames" is one of my favorite books about Luftwaffe. Now I have a look at the part of the "War Over the Steppes" presented by Google Books. It seems (unluckily for me) that the author less familiar with VVS history than with Luftwaffe.

One of the errors seems especially serious: the table III-3 "Soviet air power fuel consumption 1942" (p.114) instead of fuel consumption contains the number of bombs dropped from well-known digest "Soviet Aviation 1941-45 in figures". So the conclusion under the table about VVS consumed 2.75 times more fuel than Luftwaffe is wrong. Really VVS consumed 339,485 tons, not 3,813,367, i.e. far less than Luftwaffe. And it was a big problem for VVS.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

This seems important, "After restoring [..] order, the account became reliable (with lists of the factory numbers of planes and their motors - combat ready, in repair, lost etc), with many cross references and comments. At least for my point of interest now (year 1943) the picture of VVS inventory, losses etc is far, far more clear than the same points for Luftwaffe."

Thank you for that. That makes sense.

Can you acquire, War Over The Steppes on Amazon or Ebay? Most of the book is from the Soviet perspective.

Also! I almost forgot. How active was the NKVD in 1942-1945 in arresting VVS officers?

Bronc

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

I think the beginning of the war should be sharply separated from the later stages of the war when soviet units basically couldn't deny their losses due to the multiple levels of cross-references. What they could do, however, is to go wild with the overclaims, making the overall statistics and war balance more acceptable for the HQ.
Air divisions, for instance, had to send quarterly AC inventory reports with listed serial numbers to the VVS HQ on their plane and aircraft engine lists and assignments and of course if a plane was listed eg. on January 1, 1945 but not on April 1, 1945, somehow you had to explain what happened to it. So I would say the statistics were fixed by the overclaims/kills, not by the denial of the losses - at least in 1944-45. Soviet loss reports in 1944-45 are pretty much reliable, while the claims are not. Claims sometimes cannot be verified from German, etc. sources and perhaps they were just damaged planes, not destroyed. Same thing with the tanks. Somewhere I read that tank crews got 500 rubles after every KOd enemy tank without strict control system, so the statistics were overall OK ;-))) (That is another story that most of them had no chance to spend their money due to the huge loss and replacement rate of the crews...)

Gabor

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Yes

Nothing like events of the first month of War. If I remember right, none senior officers were arrested after it. Even after serious defeats they were transferring to less important command posts simply.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello Gabor,

Yes, overclaims were numerous. Why it was so - it is interesting but unclear problem. High command was understanding well what the number of claims was improbable in many cases. Commanders of Air Armies were understanding it too, of course, and from time to time were requiring more reliable success reports. But situation wasn't changing.
Maybe it was a means to boost the morale of the pilots.

It seems Soviet overclaim ratio was somewhere between Luftwaffe and 8 AF air gunners.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

(2) The suicide of VVS Gen-major Ivan Kopets on 23 June, 1941 (the day after A-Tag) because reporting bad news was going to result in joining group 1.

This is not true, in fact according offical military archive the day of death of Ivan Kopetz was not 23 June 1941. This data is also strange because in most materials/ Soviet time's memories/ was given the evning of 22 June 1941 see memories of gen. Zaharov the commander of fighter division.

Next in fact the day of his death was one month later on 23 July (23.07.) 1941 - such information is written in official military archive.

His wife did not know nothing about the death of his husband during her stay in Minsk in June 1941, later she was arrested in July 1941 in Moscow, where she went to looking for him.

regards,
mw

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Ad. Major General Chernykh (Czernych)


General Chernych was not killed because of the second wave of purges in the Red Army, but the reason for his death was his escape with the whole division's commander staff from the battlefield in Białystok - he abandoned his four fighters and one bomber regiments from the 9th SAD on 22/23 June 1941.

Escape from the battlefield is cowardice, often a death sentence.

Because of the purges died, among other, gen. Ionov (commadner of avaition in Baltic Special Miliatry District/ North-West Front), gen Ptuchin (commander of avaition in Kiev Special Mititary District - South-West Front).

Reagards
mw

PS.
Second way of pruges in VVS RKKA had began in May 1941 and lasted up to July 1941.

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Forgive me to interfere Broncazonk but I don't understand on what purpose the topic was started ,
I am not clear if you are making a statement or asking questions .

Let me say that I spent two years trying to understand on why Stalin and
his loyalists started the purges of the Red Army. In fact the purges commenced way
before the Marshl.Tuhatschevsky affair, it started along with Spanish Civil war and
it continued way beyond 1941 .

Here is something I managed to collect throughout the years :

VVS

- 36 Kombrig Executed
- 33 Komdiv Executed
- 17 Komkor Executed
- 4 Komandarm " "
-Over 24'000 Captain, Majors , Lt Col and Colonels
All suspected to be Tuhatschevsky collaborators,Spanish Civil War plotters against
Stalin and Trotzkists

RKK- Executions
- 3 USSR Marshals
- 10 Komandarms
- 37 Komandarm second rank
- 69 Komkor
-110 Komdiv
- 6 Kombrig
- 4 Gen.Lt
- 15 Gen Maj

VMF- Exections
Over 20 Kapitan pervey ranga
Over 500- 1000 officers

NKVD
Several thousand including their two famous leaders, knowing he's
on the list ,Yejov's deputy fled to Japan and divulged highly classified
material to Japan Imperial Army then executed by Japanese near
WWII end .

In total over 138'000 or more officers from Captain to Generals were executed
and 150'000 more banned to various rehab camps. However I believe the
figures are substantially higher .

I red several books on that , though best of it Stalin the Red Tzar

If you need details I will be happy to help .

I am surprized that as we speak Putin never managed to issue a public appology
for all these atrocities . In addition not everybody was rehab during the
Hrustchov era and further .

I almost forgot to tell you, the myth that Stalin favoured Jews is pure
nonsense and WWII German propaganda crop, in fact he used the Jews
for his purpose then gave the order to execute them. 68% of Red Army
officers executed were Jews.

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

researcher111 wrote, "Forgive me to interfere Broncazonk but I don't understand on what purpose the topic was started, I am not clear if you are making a statement or asking questions."

I wrote my post carefully and intentionally, in the hope that researchers, such as yourself, Andrey Kuznetsov, HGabor, and Mirek Wawrzynski--people who have decades of research and knowledge in this subject--would be compelled to post and reply with their knowledge.

I edited my first post five different times to get it just right. And as a result, we now have data and information that was written by historians and experts, such as yourself, that will be studied, and treasured, for the next 50-years.

When I say "treasured," I mean it. Posts like the ones in this thread are treasured.

Bronc

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hi there

Was a simple question with no other purpose which triggered
an unnecessary reaction at your end .

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

"for having (and reporting) bad news."

According to my knowledge, the use of the term "bad news" by the author proves that the person who writes in this way has no basic knowledge of what happened in June and July 1941 on the Eastern Front (in VVS RKKA).

Reports showing the losses incurred in June and July 1941 (in VVS RKKA) were written by staff officers in November, December 1941.

Stalin did not kill officers because of "bad news". This is a very strong myth that until now is in the minds of some Western authors.


It is just as scary as little effort some authors devote to their "research"


regards,
mw

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

"It is actually terrible. Gen collonel Pavlov never had anything to do with aviation, he was connectet with armored units. Pavlov fought during the Spanish Civil War as a tank brigade commander - (he was tankista/tank-man and got HSU). Arrested on 4 July 1941.

He was the commander of the Western Front on June 22, 1941. It had nothing to do with the pruges of VVS RKKKA aviation commanders. Stalin ordered to punish the guilty for a total catastrophe of troops on the Western Front - shoot them.


He was accused of cowardice, ineptitude, loss of arms and storage, arbitrary withdrawal of troops, and consequently led to the collapse of the Soviet-German front.


It was such a demonstration of power to all the commanders of what will happen to them for bad military command.

regards
mw

PS

In the era of Wikipedias and Google it is terrible to commit so many substantive mistakes in a short sentence

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

To clarify, that was my term, not the authors. I was jumping to this conclusion: "Every general/commander--who had bad news--ended up getting shot by the NKVD. Because, there wasn't a lot of good news coming from the front during that time, it was all mostly really bad, and as it turns out, hundreds of thousands of officers were indeed getting shot because of the lack of good news. It was what it was: a Purge.

Everyone please calm down. We're learning a lot about a very controversial topic.

Bronc

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello Mirek,

Mikhail Timin (I'm sure you have read his studies) told me that Kopets certainly shot himself before 17:30 22 June, most probably about 17:00.

Documents which you can see on OBD or Pamyat Naroda websites with dates 23.Jul or even 25.Jul were written after a long time and are incorrect.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello researcher111,

it is off-topic here but your numbers are extremely exaggerated.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

I didn't gather the figures from my own pockets , nor I asked anyone to believe them - Fact is that these numbers are substantially higher because I did not include all NKVD affiliates and various ranks of Politruks throughout the entire Soviet Union .If you dispute these figure howabout you provide your own evidences Tovarish !

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

h

hi, since you are the one who provide this number, you should be the one to address your source

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

from a friend who works at Russian Military State Archives , a family member who worked in the past in Russian Gov , numerous books etc ---- anything else I can help you with ?

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Is it the same person who try to prove the 40-mln losses? The author of the wonderful theory that armed forces personnel wasn't accounted during the population counts?

Some examples?

During the darkest years of the Big Terror 1937-38 several thousands officers (lieutenants and above) were executed. When were executed other 130,000+ officers (even apart from lieutenants from your words)?

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Thanks for this info Andrehy, but we have a big trobule with this case - Kopets. I can not agree with Mikhail, with whom I cooperate a few years ago and support him too in his reaserches (some my photos and some info too).

This is very strange and mystery case. In fact after 5 p.m. on 22.06.1941 I can agree that he was not in his command, he was replaced by gen. Tajurski, but I think, that this second date is correct not the first one.

If you accept the version of suicide (22.06.41) then this information should become known to the main party authorities (Ponomarienko and gen. Pawolow). Also, his wife should know about it soon. Unfortunately, but it did not. Ponamarienko (+ Pavlov) and his wife (Nina Pavlovna) were not entrusting this version with such an early suicide.

During the interrogation of Pavlov at the beginning of July 1941 nothing mentions abut this suicide, and it would be a comfortable argument for him to defence (he was shot 22.07.41).

In connection with the above I can not agree with this version M. Tymin - is contrary to the logic and memories of people close ties with gen. Kopets.

For me the date of 23.07.1941 is a day of death gen Kopets. If other evidence would surface (like NKVD's archive), I would change my opinion. So far nothing such has not yet surfaced.

regards,
mw

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

I completely agree as into Kopets as well into Timin errors. Timin and I were frequently in touch. He completed some interesting studies as into 20, 21 and 45 SAD during 1941 ( area of my research ) however just because he worked at TsAMO this does not qualify him as a final source of information . For example his material related to Odessa Military District aviation groups duing 1941 containing major errors....Timin is not specialised into Red Army purges , he's not a qualified historian of VVS 1941 - 1944 eras ,nor ever completed any studies into VMF Air Fleet 1941-1944 .Further more he repeatedly disputed various relevant details on Denes /Karlenko publications which at this point was a major lack of knowledge at his end . PS : Kopets case is just an other Stalinist era " suicide " case with parallels to Ordzhonikidze and Nadezhda A. deaths

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello Mirek and researcher111,

don't sure that I have a right to posting the details but Timin saw the coded telegram about Kopets's suicide. It was sent in the evening of 22.Jun.41 with some details of that tragic incident.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

It seems the sole solid conclusion from our brief discussion is that you and Timin are not the friends.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Hello researcher111,

About "back up the historical statements": do you have something to prove your following conspiracy-like sentence (for Ordzhonikidze and Alliluyeva, as for Kopets your "arguments" were stated above) :

The same question is about the sources of "138,000+ executed officers from captains and above".

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: War Over The Steppes
 

Researcher111, you should know by now that you do not talk that way on this forum. If you can't manage to disagree politely, then keep your angry thoughts to yourself. Nobody else needs to read them.

This thread is now closed.