Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

During the mid 1930's some aircraft delivered on RLM contracts to the Luftwaffe had duplicated Werk-Nummer series for the same model and sub-type. This is for example the case for two different series of the Heinkel He 45D. One series with W.Nr. 707 to 746 and accepted by BAL (Bauaufsicht der Luftwaffe) from February 1935 to August 1935 was duplicated with another series with W.Nr. 707 to 746 and accepted by BAL from July 1935 to January 1936. For practical reasons, the second series were delivered with W.Nr. written as 2/707 through to 2/746. The problem came later towards 1940, when one did not bother to differ between the two series resulting in that two aircraft could be operated within the Luftwaffe with different units but with the same W.Nr. and both as He 45D aircraft. As this was by no means the order of the day, it did happen quite frequently. To complicate the picture even further, I have even noticed triplications of W.Nr. If some of you have problems with two different stories of Luftwaffe aircraft but with the same W.Nr., it may be that one of them should have its number written with a 2/ or perhaps 3/ in front of the W.Nr.
I would love to have opinions about this ,as I can not remember to have seen this problem being discussed before.

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Hi - Seaplanes - Hope this helps or at least shakes the tree for additional fruit!

I have seen a few examples of the 2/ addition but never the 3/ How many triplicate examples do you have? If only a few then perhaps typos can rule these out.
My indication of the 2/ additions was mainly used by one company - Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH but others were allocated also.
FW Flugzeugwerke GmbH
Ar66C - 2/1202 - 2/1245 (44) Ar66C - 2/1422 - 2/1451 (30)
He45D - 2/707 - 2/746 (40)
Go145A - 2/1452 - 2/1489 (38) Go145A - 2/1654 - 2/1689 (36)

Arado Flugzeugwerke GmbH
JuW34hau - 2/1701 - 2/1724 (24)

With the Ar66C the only conflicting W/Nrs were 1202 - 1258 built Arado.
The He45D were 707 - 756 built by BfW
The Go145A had no conflicting W/Nrs but some appear to have had the 2/ added
The JuW34hau had no initial conflicts but may have been included because ATG also used W/Nr 1700 - 1721 for it's W33he and W/Nr 1722 - 1730 for W34hi
If anybody else any additional info or use of the 3/ example I would interested to see

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Thank you Tom. At the moment I am somewhere in the South of Europe and have no access to my documents, but I can confirm that I have the Ar 66C series from 2/1202 to 2/1245 accepted by BAL between November 1935 and February 1936. However, in this case I have no "first" series with W.Nr. 1202 to 1245 only. There are a number of similar cases which complicate the picture even more. Who said that researching Luftwaffe genealogy was like a walk in the park.

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

As a good example for what I mean is connected to a Heinkel He 50G

1. He 50G W.Nr. 963 D-IDYO test flown at Heinkel Rostock on 21. June 1935.

2. He 50G W.Nr. 2/963 D-ITQE built by Focke-Wulf and accepted by BAL in June 1935.

Much of the same is the case of He 50V-5 or He 50F with W.Nr. 955 (Heinkel built) and 2/955 (FW-built) and each of them with reg. D-IHER or D-IRNY.

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Hallo!

It's been years since I last thought actively He 50 serials. It was connected with NSGr11 research.

I really do not remember any more why, but I concluded that the 2/xxx W.Nr. meant remanufactured aircraft. For example to another subtype. It may be/have been incorrect conclusion.


Cheers,
Kari

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

1936, is it not?

Lennart A

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

There seems to be more overlapping WNr..
There are Bf 109 D-1 produced by Arado Warnemünde and E- from Messerschmitt sharing the same range around 25xx.
In some of the repair documents, available in Freiburg, are several Bf 109 D-1 mentioned with the prefix 2/.
In the W 34 production is another block with overlapping WNr. in the 1000 region.
ATG has here W 34 hi (up to 1030) and B&V W 34 hau (up to 1012)
So far I did not found any evidence, that here a prefix was used too.
Some of the B&V docs used instead the letter H- in front of the c/n.
like H-1006, H-1008, H-1012.
The He 50 seems to cover the range 2/951 up to 2/964.
The use of prefix 3/ seems a little bit without any system.
I have here 12 reports about Fw 44, Go 145, He 72, Ar 66 W 33, W 34 and Fw 56, where it looks more like typos in the docs.
One doc from Henschel mentioned a bunch of Hs 123 repaired, with the prefix 1/ used.
So there is still some research needed, to get a better overview about the system used in the late 30´s.
Regards
Dirk

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Is there any evidence of such overlapping serials on machines produced later in the war?

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

probably nothing to do with it, but is it a "C" the thing I see under the werk-nummer here?
btw... any idea on the identity of this ju52?
photo taken in Germany at war's end

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Posts 4 & 7
I have nothing for the He50 with the 2/ prefix but the production run at Focke-Wulf must have been quite small only about 10 to 12 aircraft. My estimate is 2/955 to 2/964/966. Does anybody know the exact number of He50 built at Focke-Wulf?
Dirk is there any chance to indicate the 2/ prefix W/Nrs of the Bf109Ds these are new to me but I could check them against my other Bf109D lists. Thanks. Btw I have not come across any W/Nrs with the 1/ prefix
Thanks and regards
Tom

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Posts 4 & 7
I have nothing for the He50 with the 2/ prefix but the production run at Focke-Wulf must have been quite small only about 10 to 12 aircraft. My estimate is 2/955 to 2/964/966. Does anybody know the exact number of He50 built at Focke-Wulf?
Dirk is there any chance to indicate the 2/ prefix W/Nrs of the Bf109Ds these are new to me but I could check them against my other Bf109D lists. Thanks. Btw I have not come across any W/Nrs with the 1/ prefix
Thanks and regards
Tom

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

According to my info Focke-Wulf delivered a total of 18 He 50G with Werk-Nummer 2/951 to 2/968. In addition 19 aircraft were delivered from BFW and
a total of 56 by the parent Company, Ernst Heinkel Flugzeugwerke, giving a total of 93 He 50 including protoypes and exports, most of them the He 50G version.

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Hello Tom,

I will go through the repair docs and send you the pages with the Bf 109 D.

Dirk

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Hi Seaplanes - Thanks for your data this helped a great deal. Looking at my He50 file I had the 2 prefix there all along but marked as 2955 & 2957 hidden in plain sight all along.
I now have 54 Heinkel W/Nrs just 2 short of a full house. I think these must be the ones exported but not sure.
Hi Dirk - Thanks for your offer of help much appreciated. I will give you my email address via a private note. Thanks and regards - Tom

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

I believe that the duplicated 2/---- Werk-Nummern for the Bf 109D-1 should be of general interest and from my documents (possibly the same as "Red Star") these are as follows, all Bf 109D-1:

2/2066, 2/2068 and 2/2079.

2/2517, 2/2518, 2/2519, 2/2524, 2/2533, 2/2537, 2/2538, 2/2546, 2/2549, 2/2555, 2/2569, 2/2575, 2/2586 and 2/2591.

I also have 2/2607 which may be correct but can also be a typo for 2/2067.

The Bf 109D was the first large scale production version and was manufactured by six different factories including only four aircraft by the parent BFW company. Who produced these "double" Werk-Nummer series I do not know.

Re: Duplicated Werk-Nummer blocks
 

Hi Seaplanes - Thanks for these additions. I am still going through the repair data that Dirk so generously sent to me. It is my assumption that these 2 prefix Bf109D W/Nrs are also from the Focke-Wulf company.

Bf 109D-1 - 2066 to 2080 (15) Bf109D-1 - 2511 - 2618 (108)

I have no other W/Nrs for Focke-Wulf built Bf109Ds so I feel certain that these represent the 123 aircraft built by this company. The additional info giving the 2 prefix within these parameters would seem to confirm my assumption. The data given by F.Vajda in his book of W/Nrs 1 - 123 for these have led many researchers up the wrong path for many years. So any people using info from his book German Aircraft Industry and Production should be thoroughly checked.
Regards - Tom