? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Does anybody know the exact time when his FW was shot down? Was his photo ever published? I have a strong supposition about the name of the Soviet pilot who shot him down (and he is still alive) and I'd want to check it.

The same with Hptm. Herbert Aloe lost at the same day. When he was shot down?

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Andrei,
according to the book by Hannu Valtonen ("Lento-osasto Kuhlmey", based on Bundesarchiv documents) Uffz Erich Knöbel (FW 190 A-6, "black 20", WNr 530341) was shot down at 09.30 hours (Finnish time) in the Bay of Viipuri SW Koivisto (Björkö). Hptm Herbert Aloe (FW 190A-6, "white 2", WNr 501214) disappeared at 13.40 8 km NNE Viipuri.
Carl

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Yes, I knew it!

Thank you very much, Carl! That was Tikhomirov, you know.

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Andrey, according to Valtonen’s book, p. 133 Knöbel’s plane or even Knöbel himself was probably first hit by an Il-2, probably by a rear gunner. According to Knöbel’s wingman Knöbel shot down an Il-2 but because of high closing speed “flow into the firing sector of the Il-2” after which Knöbel dived down low over the water. Because the ongoing fierce air combat wingman could not follow Knöbel after that . Knöbel was last seen at 09.30 at150m height.

Aloé was last heard when he reported that he was in air combat with enemy fighters.

Juha

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Report of Tikhomirov tells absolutely the same: At 10:23 (9:23 G.time) on H=150m two Fw 190 tried to attack Il-2 shturmoviks. T. repulsed their attack and at distance 150-10 meters with an attack angle 2/4 shot down 1 Fw 190. The plane fell 8 km west of Tiurinsaari island.

According his own words (I interviewed him several times during past two weeks), T. saw how the pilot climbed out of the plane after his attack (tall guy, maybe red-haired), opened a parachute and fell to the sea.

You can see the previous version of interview made by another researcher O.Korytov on http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilo...tikhomirov.htm

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Andrey
thanks a lot for a most interesting link!

BTW I have had difficulties in establishing when in 1944 3rd and 4th GvIAP KBF got their La-5FNs. Can you enlighten me on this?

Juha

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

4 giap AFAIR flew it at least already during Battle for Narva (Feb-March 44). I'm not sure about the 3rd, but I can suppose they both should got new ac before final deblockading of Leningrad in January 44.

That is the time when 3rd regiment became pure La-5 (in the second half of 43 it had one Yak-1 squadron).

Thanks a lot Andrey, very much appreciated!
 

So Thanks a lot!!

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

so was there any Il-2 shot down in that air combat, Andrey ?

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

He say about 7000 flight hour before he was transferred to his unit. It is possible ??? Even if he was an instructur ?

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

As long as andrei is absent i'd say yes. One Il was downed. Hope he will reconfirm this

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

I was not intending on discussing his memo's? i just recorded them? but i think it is possible that he did had a lot of experience, since they used to fly day and night. His official logged prewar experience is 1100 FH, 5000 flights, and this could be the reason for mistake. It is possible that he made 2000 more sorties.

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Hello FPSOlkor or Andrey
was there any claims by the Il-2s. There are many possible explanations how the Tikhomirov’s and Knöbel’s wingman’s stories can be explained but IMHO the three simplest ways are
a) Knöbel’s wingman didn’t notice Tikhomirov’s attack and only assumed that Knöbel was hit by Il-2(s). From the fragments of the report printed in Valtonen’s book it is not clear how intensively the wingman followed Knöbel’s attack, he might have been making simultaneously his own attack and may have only time to time glanced around the overall situation.
b) Knöbel’s plane was first hit by Il-2 and then by Tikhomirov
c) Knöbel’s plane was hit more or less simultaneously by Il-2(s) and by Tikhomirov.

Juha

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

I'm not that much of the researcher, Andrei got most of the archive data. But as long as i know, the situation in the interview described following situation: EK made a slashing attack and hit Il, and went below sturmovik, and started pulling up to repeat the attack. But he did not notice T's Yak on his tail, and his wingman was way too far.

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

Thanks a lot, FPSOlkor.
That makes perfectly sense. Now it opens another question. Did the II./JG 54 fought like the Finns often? Meaning that in principle there were pairs, fours etc but in reality in target rich environment everybody attacked his own target, of course giving a quick glance around rather often to maintain some situation awareness and to check one’s own 6 and that of nearest own plane but nothing so close co-operation than in a proper leader-wingman pair.

Hptm. Aloé also had lost contact to his wingman Fw. Huss in an earlier skirmish before he began his last combat with Soviet fighters.

Thankfully
Juha

Re: ? 5./JG 54, Uffz. Erich Kna:bel, MIA 21.06.1944
 

This is indeed a good question, but i'm afraid beyond my expertize. Sorry. From T: He saw no difference between germans and finns... Besides, I can not say anything about K combat experience. I know only that his total claim list consists of 3 aircraft, including Il in this fight. I do not know how many combat missions he flew befor that... I also do not know how experienced was his wingman...