StG.5 1942
 

Hi guys

Firstly, does anyone know of a publication covering StG.5's operations during 1942 in Russia's Far North?

Secondly, were Ju87s operated against the Allied convoys to Murmansk in 1942? There are several eyewitness reports of Stukas being observed - and even shot down.

Cheers
Brian

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hi Brian,


I can suggest this book.


https://www.amazon.com/Junkers-Stuka.../dp/184603308X




Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hello Brian.
Chapter 2 of the book mentioned by Ed covers 1942.
A quick scan of the chapter reveals around 1.5 pages on StG5 in 1942, and it confirms attacks against the Murmansk railway, and from March 1942 against Murmansk and ships.
From general information, I./StG5 was created on 27/1/42 from IV.(St)/LG1, and was stationed at Rovaniemi until March. Given Romaniemi is over 400km from the coast in any direction, I think it is unlikely the unit participated in convoy attacks before March, but then again I'm not sure just how far they would have ranged. From March the unit was stationed at Alakurrti.
In December 1942 the unit moved to Kirkenes, much closer to the convoy routes.
Apparently in January 1943 32 of its Stukas were relocated to the Leningrad sector. The remainder continued attacks against the Murmansk railway line.
I have nothing else for StG5 until June when it was redesignated again.
Cheers
Peter

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hi Brian,

Might I recommend the following publication. It is much more comprehensive than the Osprey title already mentioned:

Dive-Bomber and Ground-Attack Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945 - A Reference Source Volume 1 - Units - Formation and Redesignation - Commanders - Key Operations - Codes - Emblems.
De Zeng,Henry L Jnr & Douglas G Stankey.
Hersham:Classic,2009.
pp.113-118

As described in the sub-title, ops (and losses) mentioned.

Hopefully, someone with a scanner can help.

Any particular date in mind?

Col.

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Thanks guys

Ed: I have the Osprey title but as suggested it's not very useful.

Col: The De Zeng/Stankey title is new to me so will have to check it out. I will also check specific dates and come back.

Peter: Thanks for the movement details. In the absence of operational facts, I tend to think that the Ju87s were not able to reach the ships while at sea, and that eyewitnesses were mistaken.

First example:

Convoy PQ-4 the British SS Dan-Y-Bryn was allegedly attacked by Stukas (admittedly not StG.5) on 22 November 1941, according to diary of eyewitness:

(Quote) "Stukas dive-bombed the convoy. The flutes under the wings gave a banshee wail and every seventh shell was a tracer so when one of the gunners on the port wing Oerlikon was hit by a tracer shell, it cauterized the wound and he survived the rough handling when the skipper ordered “that corpse off the bridge”. I put him in the shelter of the wheelhouse, which was reinforced with concrete slabs, and took over the gun for a few exciting seconds. We were in the vicinity of Jan Mayen Island at the extremity of the Stukas' range so it was a short-lived raid. They lost two planes and the crews were dead when picked up [sic]. Temperature 40 below."

Highly unlikely! 'Stukas' may have meant dive-bombing Ju88s (apparently some merchant seamen referred to most bombers at Stukas). But the, I have no record of losses of Ju88s or any other candidates, let alone crew fatalities. Perhaps the date is wrong, though I can't find a similar action/losses.

I'll look for further examples.

Stukas were mentioned on at least three occasions in the diary of an American sailor during Convoy PQ-16 (on May 27)

And during PQ-18, the gunnery officer aboard one vessel wrote:

September 14: "A lone Stuka, breaking out from the cloud ... aims a serious of aggressive passes at HMS Avenger ... the Stuka, now well alight, begins to corkscrew out of the sky (it crashed into the sea nearby) ... there is no sign of the pilot in the blackened cockpit as the fuselage rolls over ..."


Cheers
Brian

Re: StG.5 1942
 

The Stukas of StG5 are recorded as R's, which means they could carry drop tanks, giving them a range of 860km. But even so, Jan Mayen island is around 1450km+ from their base, so Ju88's sound more likely. Ju-88's often flew armed recon missions, and would be much more likely to fly solo than a Ju-87.
Cheers

Re: StG.5 1942
 

I have on hand only information regarding the Convoy P.Q.16. I./St.G.5 made two attacks on shipping in this convoy, both on 30. May 1942. The first attack took place in the morning at about 08:05 (take-off time ??) with 16 Ju 87R aircraft ,and the second on 12:30 (take-off time ??) With 17 Ju 87R. On 30. May 1942 the I./St.g.5 had a total of 38 Ju 87R on strength. I do not have the point of take-off, but even if the unit was located at Rovianemi , its airceaft were quickly moved to other locations like Kirkenes or Banak for operations. My Source Reference is BA/MA RL7/498.

Re: StG.5 1942
 

PMoz99

The standard Ju 87 B was a rather short legged aircraft (P.C.Smith quote a range of 550km for the B-1 and 500 - 595km for the B-2, the latter on the same page in his book! Possibly one data is 'field' data and the other 'factory' data.)
Still quoting Smith the Ju 87 R-1 had a range of 1400km and the R-2 1253km.

I have always understood these figures to be 'ferry' ranges, ie the combat range would then be roughly half, although I think any intelligent pilot would calculate for quite a bit less, meaning the R-1 would be appx 650-680km while the R-2 would come out in the region of 590-620km

Since I presume your range data is a combat one, I wonder what source you are quoting? At least according to Smith his book is 'A Complete History'....:)

Now, does anyone have the exact route these convoys took? If possible (if I had been in command of a convoy) I would have wanted to be outside the Stuka combat range. Since I am no naval researcher, there might of course have been a myriad of reasons why that would not have been possible, depending on, for example, Winter or Summer conditions, other weather phenomena etc. At least in 1942 the long range of the Ju 87 R must have been pretty well known to the Allies.

Cheers
Stig

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Most interesting!

So, now we know that the Stukas DID operate on 30 May 1942 against PQ-16. This would have been when the convoy was nearing Murmansk.

No losses? No claims for damage?

Cheers
Brian

Re: StG.5 1942
 

No losses or damage was reported during these two attacks. However, I./St.G.5 lost four aircraft around the 30 May 1942.

On 28. May 1942 Ju 87R-2 W.Nr. 5709 was lost over the Bay of Liza. Crew parachuted.

On 01. June 1942 Ju 87R-4 W.Nr. 6324 L1+CV was possibly shot down by flak near Murmansk. One crewmember missing, one uninjured.

On 02. June 1942 Ju 87R-1 W.Nr. 5485 L1+LW was shot down by enemy aircraft. Crew missing.

On 02. June 1942 Ju 87R-1 W.Nr. 5545 L1+EW was shot Down by enemy aircraft. Crew missing.

It is interesting to note that the unit still used aircraft markings as
IV.(St.)/L.G.1.

Re: StG.5 1942
 

A bit of information that may help.


https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/stg2.html




Ed

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Stig, my initial info came from Wiki - yes I know it's not that reliable but it was the quickest source I could find. I've seen other online sources quote similar figures - B-2 range 500km with the R-2 adding 360km with the additional tanks. It's possible the various sites may have info from the same source, as sometimes happens, and if it is in error then it's just being compounded.
The Squadron/Signal Ju-87 in action publication quotes the same figures as you have for the R-1 and R-2.
Achievable range would generally depend on the load, cruising speed, and height, and in individual cases prevailing winds.
I haven't heard of the rule-of-thumb adjustment you mention, but I don't profess to be an expert on Ju-87s. I guess in the end it would all depend on the bomb load carried.
Cheers
Peter

Re: StG.5 1942
 

On May 30, 1942 the 16 Ju 87 (one returned due to a defective sighting device) started from Kirkenes at 06.35 and landed 09.35. 15 SC 500 were dropped. Then again from Kirkenes 17 Ju 87 (one returned due to engine problems) started at 11.50 and landed 13.30. 16 SC 500 and 20 SC 50 were dropped. At that time the convoy was 20 km NW Kildin.

Matti

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hello Matti.
Does your information indicate, or do you think, the Ju-87s temporarily relocated to Kirkenes from Alakurtti for the purpose of attacking the convoy?
Peter

Re: StG.5 1942
 

A short comment on Seaplanes post: 30 May 1942 was the day PQ 16 arrived in Murmansk (or at least the part of the convoy that was supposed to arrive there, and not more east), so the Ju 87 raids should have been near Murmansk. I doubt Stukas will be used against a convoy at sea at extreme range.

This is from the Osprey book "Artic Bf 109 and Bf 110 Aces" by Jogn Weal, page 45:
"The following afternoon, 30 May, 19 merchantmen of convoy PQ 16 passed Kildin Island at the entrance to the Kola Inlet on the last leg of their voyage to Murmansk. It was at this point that JG 5 entered the fray by escorting Stuka strikes on the Allied ships as they made their way south along the inlet towards their final destination."

According to the book, JG 5 pilots flew at least two Stuka escort missions against Murmansk on 31 May, 1 and 2 June before a ten day pause due to bad weather.

Re: StG.5 1942
 

"War at Sea: A Naval Atlas 1939 - 1945", Marcus Faulkner, p. 120 and 121 has maps for convoy PQ 15 and PQ 16 respectively.
PQ 15: unsuccessful airstrike at 22:30 on May 3., about 330km from Kirkenes, type of ac not specified
PQ 16: a number of airstrikes on May 27, totaling 100 sorties, no type given. Distance Banak to places where ships were sunk on May 27 ca. 400 - 480km. Attacks on May 29 close to port were not successful; distance Petsamo to point of attack 150 - 250km.
Distances measured from centre of airfield icon to convoy route where airstrike is indicated.
HTH, Richard

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Peter

I./StG 5 was more or less either constantly on the move or had their staffeln spread out all over northern Finland and Norway. You can say they were the fire brigade of the Wehrmacht. However they were never enough and never really able to turn out any 'fires' what so ever.

Richard

Very interesting details which seems to confirm my suspicions. The British convoys learned to stay out of range as much as possible. Perhaps it is correct to say that the early 1942 convoys could be reached by the Stukas while the latter could not? Most of the Stuka shipping attacks were made against the ships when they moved into the inlets and harbours in the Murmansk area.

Cheers
Stig

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Thanks Stig. It was my understanding that most, if not all, of the Ju-87 attacks were near Murmansk.
Interesting to know the mobility of StG5. I didn't realise they moved around so much.
Peter

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Here is a map of all aerial attacks on P.Q.16 and it is evident that both I./St.G.5 attacks were made close to the Murmansk inlet. It is also correct as Matti mention, that one aircraft abortet in each of the two attacks.
I hope that map comes through in readable condition.

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Wow! Thanks, Seaplanes.

That's excellent - except that I can't clarify detail!

Has anyone the patience and ability to list details of each attack?

That would be really helpful.

Cheers
Brian

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hi guys


Any luck, anyone, with deciphering the details shown on the map?

Cheers
Brian

PS: Seaplanes, I sent you a PM

Re: StG.5 1942
 

To Brian,

no PM received in my mailbox

Seaplanes

Re: StG.5 1942
 

Hi Seaplanes

Sent to your Visitors' Page (twice)!

Cheers
Brian