Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hi guys

14/05/44
A Caproni Ca 313 Swedich (S-16A,3335 F11-14) was shot down 15 km from Libau by Obfd.Gerhard Schroder (NAGr-5),claimed as DB-3.

1)I would like to know wether the claim was credited to him?
no mention in the list of Tony Wood.

15/05/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16B,3304/F11-8):disappeared mysteriously!

23/05/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16A,3319/F11-61):disappeared 11 km of Danisch port of Anholt.

07/06/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16A,3345/F11-34):disappeared mysteriously

Many disappearances in such a short time:strange!

2) Have been shot down by Luftwaffe? and the incidents supressed for diplomatic reasons?

Thank's in advance

Michel

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Michel

First of all the SwAF never used a hyphen in its designation. The Ca 313 was known as the B 16A, S 16A/B, T 16A and Tp 16A depending on its role. In this case S 16A is correct.

In all four S 16A are recorded during this time frame to have been lost, three known to German interference, and the other one most probably not.

S 16A Fv no 3335 F11-14 disappeared 14 May 1944 shot down by Bf 109G-8 over the Baltic, probably by Obfw Gerhard Frenzel aus Plauen who claimed a DB-3, one killed and three rescued.
S 16A Fv no 3304 F11-8 disappeared 15 May 1944 during search for Fv no 3334, probably shot down by Fw Paul Schalk 6./JG 5, four killed
S 16A Fv no 3319 F11-61 disappeared 23 May 1944 11km west of Anholt, probably shot down by Uffz Mittelstadt 10./JG 1 who claimed a Douglas, four killed
S 16A Fv no 3345 F11-34 disappeared 7 June 1944 over the Baltic, probable cause mist mistaken for low clouds and flight into the water/loss of control with the same result, four killed.

I don't believe the incidents were supressed at the time. The Swedish long range reconnaissance units were snoping around in the Baltic to have first hand data of what the German (and Soviets) were doing in the area, and it feels reasonable to believe that all personal knew about the risks and even if probably no one liked said risks, I doubt anyone backed out.

So far my Swedish sources. Most correspond to your details, except who shot down Fv no 3335. I have no unit for Frenzel aus Plauen but he could well be from NAGr 8. Did that unit claim two aircraft?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Great information, Stig

Do you have details of the identities of those lost?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Yes Sir! :)

I have lists of all Swedish crews killed in aircraft crashes.
Also details of all pilots/crews known to have survived parachute jumps/ejections.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Very interesting Stig!

According to my source (Rolf Jonsson) Frenzel and Schroder were well members of NAGr-5....error of Jonsson? or NAGr-8?

A very personal remark:
If they have not been deliberately shot down,difficult to understand these "errors" of identification(enormous Swedish markings).

Michel

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

A link to an interesting discussion on the two first losses of Capronis, unfortunately in swedish.

http://forum.flyghistoria.org/viewto...b511237dec9210


Conclusion, Fw Paul Schalk 6./JG 5 shot down both Capronis

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Michel

First an apology. Don't know why I wrote NAGr 8. Was supposed to be NAGr 5 all the time. The reason Gerhard Frenzel is quoted in my book was that he fled to Sweden at the end of the war and told his interrogators he was the one.

All shoot downs are intentional in war. The knowledge however what you are shooting at may not however always live up to our expectations. Aircraft recognition was generally of a rather low quality, on all sides. You basically saw what you expected/wished to see. Also remember the old saying, the one who shoots first usually live to see another day.

Don't forget the number of blue-on-blue incidents during WW 2 was rather staggering as well, which says a lot why so many individuals completely failed to see any national markings (and, added to that failed with their aircraft identification).

Peter

It seems new information/research has produced a different result regarding the shoot down on 14 May 1944. Will read it through. Thanks for pointing it out! :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

All

From the forum I notice there is a Swedish speaking Swiss Gentlemen who has done research down in Freiburg. Among documents relating to Naval stuff he has located some papers which more or less conclusively clinch Fw Paul Schalk to the two shoot downs of S 16A 3335 and 3304.

He has a theory regarding why Gerhard Frenzel, when interrogated in 1945, stated he shot down one of them. I have asked him to clarify a couple of points before I state that theory.

Again a very interesting discussion. Thanks Michel for bringing it up :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Very interesting
especially thanks to Peter for the link to the Flyghistoria pages!

Saw once a part of a Swedish film on the Swedish Caproni C 313 crews showing the recon flights over the Baltic. And saw the the replica used in the film in the Swedish AF Museum.

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello!

I think Swedish AF aircrafts did not have insignia on wing upper surfaces 1944. Approaching from rear and high there would be no insignias visible.

Cheers,
Kari

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Kari

Partly correct.
No over wing insignias were carried until appx summer 1944 when they were applied also to the upper surface.
Reason was no doubt the losses suffered previously in May.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Stig
what was the logic behind that practice? Many Soviet twin-engine aircraft also lacked the over wing national insignia, so the practice made Swedish planes more similar to Soviet ones. One would think that Swedes would have tried to be discerned from the combatants when they flied over areas used by both combatants, not to look like one of the combatants.

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Good question Juha

At this point I don't know! I never really been a camouflage and marking enthusiast, so I have not delved any deeper into why a certain stand was adopted.

From what I have gathered the camouflage originated in Italy and most likely was the one the French had wanted and was not changed upon arrival to Sweden. If the paint needed to be changed or the aircraft were repainted Swedish substitute colours were used.

Your reference to being more look-a-like to Soviet aircraft at the time was probably something the SwAF was not aware of.

Since these Swedish long-range reconnaissance flights very often brought the aircraft perilously very close to areas where enemy aircraft was a reality perhaps low visibility was more paramount than showing the three crowns?

But with hindsight I agree, it was both dangerous and perhaps even foolish.
Then on the other hand, we don't know what the end result would have been even if over wing markings had been used....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Stig
thanks for answering. I’m not marking specialist either and of course we don’t know if clearer national markings would have made any difference. But e.g. Dutch even gave up their cockade in October 1939 and began use the large black lined orange triangle instead.

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Indeed Juha

Holland probably felt themselves extremely threatened after the outbreak of WW 2 and probably did not want to give the Germans a single chance to claim they thought the Dutch were Allied aircraft due to the circular form of the old marking.

Sweden probably felt safer in 1939, after all we would have been very much a 'side show'. All that changed pretty fast of course in April 1940, but that was another story...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Being the "Gentleman"in question, I'd like to give some more information regarding this incident over the Baltic sea.

Since april 1944 the "Seekommandant Libau" registered with some irritation regularly performed enemy flights outside the Libau coast - each day the same hours and more or less the same route. They asked for help and got it from Luftflottenkommando 1 which sent a "Tag-Jagdschwarm" II./JG 5 to Libau-Grobin, airfields in Latvia. Possibly only three pilots were sent - Oblt. Theo Weissenberger, Fw Paul Schalk and Uffz Zacharias.(App 1)

Then, as we've seen, on the 14 and 15 of May the two swedish Capronis were shot down by Paul Schalk - clearly shown in the naval documents I found in Freiburg/Brsg.

Then we have this national markings thing. Paul Schalk wrote in his first report and later by the hearing, that he attacked from behind and underneath, but mentioned only the markings on the body of the Caproni: Three yellow crowns on blue and a big white 14 on the tail fin. Nothing about wing markings.

In the belief that this must be a russian aircraft with false national markings, he didn't hesitate to shoot it down...and with the same belief he also took down the Caproni the following day - all the more as the "enemy" planes moved as if they were trying to escape...! By the hearing a couple of days later - at a time when they all knew those were swedish planes - Schalk came up with some other excuses, a.o. he himself knew the swedish markings should have been three blue crowns on white ground...!

Anyway he got away with it in the end, no problems...

Btw, the german Luftwaffenkommando tried to block the news of the second Caproni shooting. It was to be seen as a spy thing. "Don't tell the Swedes anything about (our involvement)"!!(App 2)

Hans K

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Thanks Hans for confirming on this forum as well your findings.

Are you still convinced there is an error in the Swedish interrogation back in 1945 and that was the reason the wrong individual was credited with the shoot down? Been thinking about it now and then and I find that theory quite plausible.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Thanks for sharing do documents Hans, interesting findings.

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Hans
Thanks for the extra interesting info!

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

First, thanks for the nice words Stig, Mikael and Juha:)...

I'll try to answer that.

We've here a unique possibility, IMW, to compare the original "Gefechtsbericht" (seen below in the thumbnail section)with what the German authorities put together, and some time after the "incident" gave to the Swedish flight attaché in Berlin. A finely doctored report to a, at that time, not so friendly "neutral" nation...

The Swedish author Bo Widfeldt - who I guess is not totally unknown for many here in this forum - got the chance to see this report, translated it into Swedish and put it in his book "In Memoriam" (Swedish losses within the Swedish Air Force). I refrain from copying it here - you've to believe me when I compare it with the original "Gefechtsbericht"...
The report for the Swedes, as seen in that book, looks well translated from German so I want to point out some discrepancies to the original report given and signed by the one pilot who did all the shooting-downs of the Capronis, Feldwebel Paul Schalk.

The most important difference is Schalk reporting he attacked from behind and beneath, while in the "Swedish" version the attack came from behind and above. Why so important? Because, as we've seen, the Swedish Caproni did'nt have any national markings on the upper side of the wings...and that sort of gave the German pilot Carte Blanche to attack a possibly Russian aircraft...!

At least it sounded much better on the report to the Swedes...

Then, all the German names were omitted in the censored report: The Jägerleit-Offz. Off Jung was not mentioned, the second pilot, Uffz Zacharias was not mentioned - and most important, the name of Fw Paul Schalk is nowhere to be seen.

Instead the Swedes find "Oberfeldwebel Gerhard Frenzel aus Plauen" at the end of the Swedish report.

And the second "kill" was of course denied by the Germans and not even mentioned...

Now, why did the Germans put Frenzel there instead of Paul Schalk? We can only speculate for now. Two possibilities as I see it: The few pilots belonging to II.JG5, Jagdkommando Libau came from Finland in sort of a secret mission, it shouldn't be common knowledge - for some reason - that they existed at that place...and that time. Ergo, they were not to be mentioned - somebody else who anyway was stationed in that area had to put his name on the report...Gerhard Frenzel.

Or, Schalk was already gone, somebody in the very German manner had to sign off on the report...Gerhard Frenzel happened to be there...

Anyway, Frenzel was most certainly aware of the Swedish report and the content, so when he came to Sweden on the 8th off May 1945, he confirmed that it was his signature on that paper. So, I don't believe there was any error from the Swedish authorities - they just got a confirmation what they saw at the end of the "faked" German report.

I've been trying for some time to get hold of the Widfeldt documents, perhaps they we'll enlighten us - or not...

Hans K

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Thanks Hans

I am in USA right now and will look into your docs when home again. There are many days where there is no connection to any Internet at all (very relaxing if you ask me...:) )
However, as I said earlier, your reasoning sound pretty convincing!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Just a couple of thoughts on target visibility:

1. When the target aircraft is in 20mm cannon range (approx. 400-600m), a Spitfire size target is about the size of a fingernail (approx. 1 cm). A Tupolev SB, Douglas Boston, Caproni 313 size aircraft, would probably be no bigger than 2cm in view. By the time you get close enough to see markings and make out colours and crowns, etc, you would (I estimate) need to be within 100-150m range. At a closing speed of 100km/hr, you would cover that 300-400m in something like 10 seconds. You may well need to decide whether to fire or not after about 3-4 seconds otherwise you may be too close. I suggest that by the time you have come into range and decided to fire, and 6 seconds later are close enough to see the colours and details of the markings.... you have had enough time to shoot down the aircraft and now realize your error - too late.

2. The level of published details on aircraft recognition (and perhaps the care in which most pilots would have bothered to pay more than cursory attention) was surprisingly low. We enthusiast - with the greater level of knowledge and care - can probably tell the difference in details between similar aircraft far better than the best aces of WW2. But then, we don't need to make life-and-death decisions in the moments of anxious excitement. (Luckily.)

3. Light and shadow, and different angles of approach can make a Spitfire, look like a radial engine aircraft. I noticed this on numerous aviation videos, and in real life with a P-51 and A-1 in loose formation. (At times in the distance, when there was insufficient plan view detail, it was surprisingly difficult to quickly tell which was which - i.e. if you had looked away for a few seconds and then look back up to reacquire sight of the pair of aircraft.)

So not really surprising the level of errors in aircraft shoot downs.

Just my thoughts,
...geoff

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Geoff
are you sure?
Why bother with national markings if they were useless?
I had no troubles to tell the off-white "face" from otherwise dark brown man-side target from 300 m at the firing-range decades ago. SwAF Caprionis had fairly large national markings below wings appr. 1.5 m diameter. They were almost as big as one could paint on the wing. The fuselage roundels were also almost as big as possible but because of the slim fuselage of Caproni smaller, appr. 1 m across but even that should have been enough IIRC the results of the Finnish marking tests around 1940.

Agree with your points 2. and 3.

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Hans
thanks for the iinteresting info!
I have one question, what was the "in sort of a secret mission in Finland"? I know and the Soviets knew in 1944 that before its transfer to Baltic II./JG 5 had operated from Lappland. I'm pretty sure thatn also Swedes were aware of that.

Juha

Ps even the national markings of this size and colour combination were more visible than necessary from 600 m on a cloudy day according to the Finnish testsin in late 1943.
https://www.facebook.com/airforcemus...type=3&theater

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Paul Schalk was very much convinced he had a Russian aircraft in his sights...at least the first one. In the Hearing after the shoot-downs he states his reasons why he acted like he did.

He there mentions a conference with his superiors on the 13th of May, before the shootings. There they were all convinced, through the flight patterns of the enemy machines so close to the Latvian border, that they must be Soviet planes. Only a Oberst Dangers (Jagdabschnittsführer Ostland) mentioned, casually obviously, that they could be Swedish (App 2).

But Schalk says he didn't think this remark was of importance. Furthermore he says he never got any thorough instruction regarding the 3-milezone, and his knowledge of Swedish markings was - as we've seen above - poor...

So, when he attacked from the back and underneath, he saw some insignia - and I'm quite certain he saw them clearly, those huge yellow and blue markings underneath the wings. But his belief that they were Soviet planes just made him push the gun-button...and there perhaps we've sort of an explanation - because of poor, even misleading information...in his mind...he was attacking Russian planes before he even saw them...

More questions arise by the second shooting though, the next day. At that time he knew it was a Swedish plane he had taken down the day before - and now, same plane, same markings, but still he shot the second one down too...

His explanation in the Hearing is the following:
"By the new encounter on the 15.5., with the same kind of aircraft, I didn't have the slightest hesitation in attacking it, because immediately (it showed a) defensive reaction and moved away towards the west, instead of showing its peaceful intention and moving towards the coast." (App 1).

You misunderstood me there, Juha. In my attempt trying to explain why Paul Schalk and his Jagdkommando were left out of the German censored report, I wrote that perhaps "II.JG5, Jagdkommando Libau came from Finland in sort of a secret mission"...not in Finland...

Greetings Hans K

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Am I sure? Well, I’ll tell you what I know, and let you decide.

1. Apparent sizes of target:

In Alfred Price’s “Spitfire at War” (I assume Volume 1, as there is no number mentioned), on page 63, is a photo of a Spitfire at 600 yards distance. The instructions in the caption are to hold the page 18 inches away from your face. The Spitfire’s wingspan measures an apparent 1cm (or approximately one fingernail space).
Look up “Mil-Dot Range Estimation” in Google or Wiki for a more scientific calculable range estimation method.

2. Opening fire at 600m or 400m or closer:

The RAF had their Hurricane and Spitfire wing guns harmonised to 450yards range. The average pilot couldn’t hit the side of a barn at that range. Through operational experience, this was lowered to 250 yards. It was shown to be far more effective range to cause damage.
The Luftwaffe Bf109G would have centreline 20mm or 30mm cannon and nose (close to centreline) heavy machine guns. Longer ranging and more hitting power than the early RAF 0.303-in Brownings. Centreline weapons also simplified the ballistic trajectory for aiming. However, I suggest you want to get close to be able to hit a jinking target effectively. I would also suggest 400m is a reasonable compromise between weapon range versus hitting power (i.e. longer range is possible but likely to result in less hits). Hartmann was noted as liking to get really (almost collision) close to effectively hit targets like IL-2s.

3. Estimated closing speed:

100 km/hr closing speed; i.e. 100,000 m/60min
400m distance is covered in 0.24 min (approx. 14 seconds)
I rounded to 10 seconds for the discussion, so OK, you have 4 more seconds to make up your mind to fire or not.

4. What sort or detail can you see (colours or markings, etc) at 150m or at 400m:

1m = 1.09 yards, so not much change from using either.
I base my observations from my own flight training. I flew from a General Aviation airfield at Moorabbin in Melbourne. Twin parallel runways, and quite busy at times. Saturday mornings in Spring or Summer, not unusual to have 12 aircraft (Cessna 170s, or 180s, Piper PA-28s and some light twins) in the dual circuits. Head constantly swivelling and eyeballs on stalks to keep track of aircraft. Only thing different to war was that no one was shooting at me…..though some would say the “bark” of the Air Traffic Controllers was sometimes worse! I know I could make out the colours and details of aircraft flight school or charter company logos from across the flight circuit (so approx. 100-150m). From forward or rearward direction, I could tell you it was a blue aeroplane or a white aeroplane or maybe white with red fin. From 400m away, I could tell you it was a dark shadow on a blue sky or a white shape on a grey sky. If they turned to join in the circuit, and you could see the plan shape then you could make out what colour the fuselage was, but not much of the logo.
Try the exercise yourself with trucks on the road. Hopefully from the safety of a house window….see how much of the truck company logo you can see at 100m or approx. 400m or more.

5. How effective were aircraft markings:

I would say next to useless!

I don’t think they were much use for identification in flight combat. If they were so good, ask yourself, why the Luftwaffe needed yellow nose theatre markings on the Bf109E and F models during the Channel Front operations 1940-41. With the huge difference between a Black Balkenkreuz and the oversized RAF Red/Blue upper wing roundels, why were so many RAF Mustangs and Typhoons bounced and attacked by friendlies? Why did markings shrink in size with the passage of time?
Why would the Swedish AF remove the yellow crowns from the top of the wings on these Capronis? Perhaps to make the dark camouflage more effective against the dark sea. If they were to make their neutrality obvious, why not go high-viz with yellow upper-wings with blue crowns? I suggest because the markings were not going to be obvious enough at 400 km/hr speeds at 400-600m ranges, when a likely attack would be initiated. So far better to hide in the background to enhance survivability.

Like I said, just my thoughts.
…geoff


Additional (noticed sveahk's last comments):
I have no problem believing Schalk saw and recognized the markings, but he was being interviewed some time after the event. How close was he when he realized they were Swedish markings? How low were the Ca 313s flying? How low was Schalk? Did he attack the second Ca 313 a day later because he had convinced himself they were Russians flying with Swedish markings?


Juha, 1.5m diameter marking is not very big from 600m away. Spitfire has 11m wingspan and has an apparent size of about 1cm at 600 yards (say 590m). Do the truck test, and you will see what I mean.

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Schalks "Gefechtsbericht" was written 15.5, one day after his first shoot-down, and a couple of hours after the second.

How close he was - he does'nt say.

The first Ca 313 flew at 1.000 meter over the water - the second one about 500 meter.

How low was Schalk? Obviously lower...

The second shoot-down:
In his own report he writes: "Beim Einkurven erkannte ich denselben Flugzeugtyp wie am 14.5. Hoheitszeichen: 3 goldene Kronen auf blauem Grund, am Seitenleitwerk eine weisse Zahl, es kann eine 11 gewesen sein. Ich griff das Flugzeug von hinten an."
(In short: He recognized the plane, saw the insignia and attacked it from behind...)

This is missing in the Hearing report. His superiors presumably didn't like this part that much, so what we read in that report is what I've scanned in my last post...App 1.

Only reason, as I see it, why he still attacked the second Ca 313 - is, he was still not that convinced it was Swedish...and when the "enemy" aircraft tried to escape to the west - voila, he shot...!

Greetings Hans K

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Geoff
my flying experiences have been only as a passenger, so no practical experience on my ability to discern aircraft markings while flying. But
I know the results of the FiAF tests on the visibility of its markings and those of designed to give lower visibility to national markings but still be reasonably visible on cloudy weather slightly farther away than 600 m (the firing range of a fighter)

and at least in theory Naked eye: Angular resolution: about 1 arcminute, approximately 0.02° or 0.0003 radians, which corresponds to 0.3 m at a 1 km distance. That's from Wiki, so certain amount of sceptism maybe needed.

I have a copy of Fighting in the air. The official combat technique instructions for British fighter pilots, 1916-1945 and from the 1943 Bag the Hun! instructions I would say that from 500 y and 30 deg. off (above or above and side) it might well be possible to discern the over wing Balkenkreuz but the fuselage Balkenkreuz might be more difficult to discern even from a much shorter distance if on the shadow side and the angle off is small. This is of course speculation on my part.

That one side had crosses and the other roundels or stars made things easier in ETO and on the Eastern Front.

Finns shrank their markings on bombers after the Winter War so that the max dimeter became 1 m. Pilots had strongly protested that our national markings were too visible. Even so no confirmed FiAF "own goals" (there are some rumours on one case but they are not substantiated) during the 3 ½ years of wars but FiAF shot down at least two German bombers (one He 111 at night and one Ju 188).

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Juha,

A healthy discussion as always. I don't believe my hypothesis is definitive, just an attempt to explain to myself why so many "own goals" and "mistakes" occurred. While the first few points are scientifically based, and I have higher confidence in; the recognition of markings is purely speculative.

Gosh there must be so many variables! Not least of which was the overwhelming desire to shoot down the "perceived"enemy. Elsewhere on this forum was discussed an incident in Italy where a pair of USAAF P-51s slipped passed the escorting Spitfires or RAAF Mustangs to shoot down an RAF Lysander - believing it to be a Hs126.

With the Finnish AF study on markings, does it go into greater depth on what the pilots were picking up on? Did the prominent white circle on Finnish markings stand out so much, that it was what the pilots were seeing first....and then summerizing that nothing else had big white circles, so had to be Finnish?

Anyway, it is becoming thread-creap away from the original subject, so I will close off here. A subject for another time and place and a beer perhaps.
...geoff

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Geoff
yes we had somewhat "off the track" so only a short note of the FiAF study.

Yes, the problem was the white disk, flying personel were aware of that even before the Winter War and in late autumn 1939 many planes had that overpainted but the C-in-C of the FiAF, he had come from Coastal Artillery to the post of the C-in-C and had many good qualities but he was not so well aware of the practicalities of aerial combat, took dim view of that and by the Winter War the markings were “clean”.

In those late 1943 tests clearly saw the white disk a problem and the report recommended a plain white outline swastika. That was too much for the HQ and they ordered another tested marking, which was as before but with grey disc, to be used. In practice the disk was usually painted with light blue-grey matt colour (RLM colour Hellblau 65) because of availability.

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello Hans
thanks for the extra info!

Juha

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Hello!

There is photo of the Bf 109 shooting down the Swedish Capronis. It is now viewable in digitized material from Remi Milk collection at
Eesti sõjamuuseum - kindral Laidoneri muuseum (Estonian War Museum ( https://www.muis.ee/catalogue;jsessi...C11663F194A5E5 )

Below should be hotlinked spotview of the album photo (the picture down, right). I don't know the photo author, it is not necessarily Milk's own and he has got it from someone else. There was Lw flight school at Libau IIRC where also Estonians were trained as pilots.

The caption
"Liibavis, kevadel 1944
ME-109 peale Rootsi luurelennuki "Caproni" allatulistamist" means:

In Libau, Spring 1944
Me-109 after shooting down Swedish reconnaissance aircraft Caproni

https://www.muis.ee/digitaalhoidla/a...d-7538d020517c

The album page can be downloaded in larger format here:
https://www.muis.ee/digitaalhoidla/a...1-1f01cf70571c

The link downloads directly to one's computer not opening any new page.
It is a pity that the tactical number or other markings are not visible.


Cheers,
Kari

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Very interesting indeed. But it seems that some are looking to lay blame at the feet of Schalk, using loaded (pardon the pun) terms such as 'shooting'. Let's keep in mind that Sweden was not the lily-white neutral that they claimed to be during the conflict, as clearly evidenced by their treatment of internees and those trying to escape Stalinist persecution.

Re: Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich
 

Thank you Kari,


Very interesting!