KG 53 night claims
 

According to the Luftwaffe night fighter claim books, 6./KG 53 scored four night victories in May 1942:

16 May, 2210 hrs: Uffz Mistler claimed a TB-3 near "Borogobusch"
19 May, 0045 hrs: an "Abschuß", no more details
21 May, 0010 hrs: an "Abschuß", no more details
29 May, 2255 hrs: Fw Bauer claimed a TB-3 4 km east of Uschakova

I found today a Russian website with detailed story of the TB-3 unit that was in May 1942 called 1 GvADD, and losses of TB-3 to "enemy fighters" were signaled in the night of 16-17 May (2), 20 May and 30 May. They seem to correspond with above claims nicely. The website is here: http://retrovtap.ru/?page_id=662

I wonder if a scan of Luftwaffe losses data base can help to complete the names of above claimants (at least Mistler, Bauer will probably return many results).

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hi Laurent,

In Mai 1942 Waldemar Teige and his crew (6./KG53) claimed 7 kills, all being TB-3.

16./17.05.1942 - TB-3 - Dorogobush
16./17.05.1942 - TB-3 - Dorogobush
16./17.05.1942 - TB-3
18./19.05.1942 - TB-3
20./21.05.1942 - TB-3
23./24.05.1942 - TB-3
29./30.05.1942 - TB-3

The four claims you show could all have been made by Obfw. Teige.

Regards, Thomas

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hi Laurent

Maybe not relevant to your research but I have a Flugbuch to a member of the crew of Leutnant Horn of 5./KG53, which shows the following claims:

1 TB3 12th May 1942
2 TB3 22nd May 1942
1 TB3 29-30th May 1942

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Thanks to both of you. It seems there were far more claims that I know just for these two crews.

Thomas, can I ask you your source, please ?

Could the Uffz Mistler and Fw Bauer above be linked to the Teige or Horn crews by somebody ?

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Luftwaffe im Focus nr. 5

Not to the Teige crew. The twelve claims Teige and his crew made are on his name and not on the name of any of the other crew members. So if claims are on Mistler and Bauer it would in theory mean it was their crew. Depending on the source, both gentlemen could also have been part of somebody else his crew, but made a record that they pulled the trigger.

Regards, Thomas

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

On a side note.

5./KG53 and 6./KG53 are often mentioned as been involved in night fighting in 1942. On the first of February 1943. FF Leutnant Meindl (4./KG53) received his clasp with star pennant while being part of "Nah-Nachtjagdschwarm-Lft. 1". (Source: his Urkunde)
This could be proof that 4./KG53 was also participating in night fighting but also shows that it didn't stop in May 1942. I don't know if any claims were made after May 1942 by II/KG53?

Regards, Thomas

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

I know that in the Luftwaffe the rule was to let the claims to the "boss" (wingmen has no share in kills done with their Rotte or Schwarm leader in most cases), but here here the He 111 pilots had no weapons to fire, except if they used field modified aircraft, so the gunner did the firing while the pilot did the positioning.

Thomas, thanks, actuallu I have Luftwaffe in Focus 5 but I completely forgot this article.

In it crew members of Teige are identified as Fw Rieck, Glonner and Galisch.

And I had also forgotten that Teige was killed in October 1942, in my memory I mixed it with Arnold Döring that also claimed night kills with KG 53 (including 3 TB-3 claimed in one night over Stalingrad, so the "night fighter flights" did not stop in May 1942) and then went to become a JG 300 and then a NJG pilot, claiming his two final kills during operation Gisela in March 1945. AFAIK he survived the war, but I don't know if his interesting story is told in details somewhere ?

By the way, I find interesting the fact that all night claims listed in this thread for Teige, Horn and Döring were for TB-3s, while Soviet used many types at night. Maybe the big size and slow speed of the TB-3 allowed the He 111s to intercept them while the other Soviet types were far more difficult to see and then to engage successfully. And this brings me an idea: could KG 53 have flown this "night patrols" only in areas where TB-3s were flying ? If the TB-3s were withdrawn in June 1942 (and it seems to me that the Soviet unit I was talking in my first post at least did change of targets, so maybe also of area, and then returned in August in Stalingrad area), that could explain why the night scharm was returned to bombing duties.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hello!

I think the TB-3s were used to supply partisans and cut off Soviet forces in the rearward area of A.O.K. 4 around Dorogobuzh and Schilowka in Mid 1942. The TB-3s were probably withdrawn after the destruction of the Soviet troops in early June.

Regards

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

I am not sure what, if any, significance it has but I noticed that Horn flew a 4. Staffel machine '+IM' for some of his night hunts during this period, even though the crew were from 5. Staffel. The 'kills' all look to have been made by '+AN'.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Yes, they were supplying Belov's cavalry corps and IV Airborne Corps and the partisans in the "Dorogobuzh" pocket. TB-3's flew in a battalion of antitank guns on May 9. Operation "Hanover" was launched on 24 May. During this period there were heavy rains which disrupted the air supply operation. The first phase of the operation was over by 1 June and it developed into a pursuit of Belov's corps which escaped to the east after 21 June. It was an important mission for the Germans as it helped to stabilize the Rzhev salient. That would explain the extra Luftwaffe effort at night.


oquaig

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Dear all,

A very interesting thread, thanks for all the input! I have four claims for TB-3's shot down by the Lt. Horn crew in May 1942, all in the Yelnia area (Oblast Smolensk), alas no times and exact locations for these Abschüsse. These Abschüsse were made on 12/13 May (1 TB-3), 22/23 May (2 TB-3s), and 29/30 May 1942 (1 TB-3). Can anyone let me know if there are corresponding Soviet loss details that can be matched to these four victory claims?

Cheers, Theo

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

For 22/23 May 1942, the following link in Russian describes the loss of a TB-3 of 3 APDD to an "enemy fighter" and gives a crash location:
http://allaces.ru/p/episode.php?id=1189

The crew member list for this unit on the above site has also one man lost on 19th May.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hello Laurent,

Thanks for sharing these details -as my knowledge of the Russian language is rather rusty these days, could you tell me the crash location mention in the link?

Cheers and thanks, Theo

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Theo, it says that they were going to deliver anti-tank mines to Glukhovo (I'm assuming the one to the south of Smolensk). They were shot down at Ugra which is to the south of Vyazma which would be in enroute to Glukhovo.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Thanks for that -these details fit in well with either of Lt. Horn's claims on this night.

Cheers, Theo

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Michael, Theo, good day.
Glukhovo - it's to the east of Ugra
54.754994, 34.469462

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Thanks for adding these details, cheers, Theo

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Thanks Kirche. So many Glukhovo show up in Yandex. I found urochishche Glukhovo were you said it would be.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hi Everyone,

I didn't feel like doing any real work today so just for fun I thought I would put together a little map for you. Follow the arrows:

1) the claim for: "29 May, 2255 hrs: Fw Bauer claimed a TB-3 4 km east of Uschakova". (my best guess working from a Deutsche Heereskarte)
2) the claims for Dorogobuzh:"16 May, 2210 hrs: Uffz Mistler claimed a TB-3 near "Borogobusch", 16./17.05.1942 - TB-3 - Dorogobush
16./17.05.1942 - TB-3 - Dorogobush".
3) the claims for Yelnia:"four claims for TB-3's shot down by the Lt. Horn crew in May 1942, all in the Yelnia area (Oblast Smolensk), alas no times and exact locations for these Abschüsse. These Abschüsse were made on 12/13 May (1 TB-3), 22/23 May (2 TB-3s), and 29/30 May 1942 (1 TB-3)".
4) the claims for Glukhovo: "Theo, it says that they were going to deliver anti-tank mines to Glukhovo. They were shot down at Ugra which is to the south of Vyazma which would be in enroute to Glukhovo".(actually the the GPS location provided is just to the south east of Urga Station).

By the way the map comes from Earl Ziemke: "Moscow to Stalingrad" pg. 243. Available thru the USGPO.

Please note the arrows only point to crash sites not flight paths. 3 APDD flew from Monino 35 km east of Moscow. Their route unknown to me. I just find it very interesting that He 111's were used as night fighters. Very interesting thread indeed.

best wishes to all
oquaig

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

? Possible Ушаково (Uschakova) 54.740121, 33.470437

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Yes, I think you have right!

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

AFAIK, Döring was with 8./KG 55.

Chris

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

I am currently researching a Flugbuch from one of the Horn crew and it has brought me back to this discussion. I have found three missions identified as 'Raum Dorog Nachtflug', two of which occurred on 20th March 1942 and one on 22nd March 1942. On the first of these missions (between 03:27 and 06:20 on 20th March) there is a comment 'Abschuss DB 3'. This falls outside the dates discussed before but appears to be in the same area, assuming 'Dorog' is Dorogobuzh.

The pilot of the aircraft is Leutnant Erich Horn (mentioned earlier in the thread) and the Flugbuch I have is for his Air Gunner Unteroffizier Werner Petersen (later Oberfeldwebel, DKiG). They are a 5./KG 53 crew but fly A1+GN for two of the missions and A1+AP for one of them.

All of their claims are as follows:

20th March 1942 between 03:27 and 06:20, flying A1+GN - 1 TB-3 shot down Dorogobuzh area

Further claims are made as follows:

12th May 1942 between 20:45 and 22:30, flying A1+AN - 1 TB-3 shot down Yelnya area
22nd May 1942 between 20:00 and 23:50 , flying A1+AN - 2 TB 3 shot down Yelnya area
30th/31st May 1942 between 23:23 and 02:18, flying A1+AN - 1 TB-3 shot down Yelnya area

Quite a lot of night flights were flown during May 1942 to achieve these 'kills' but night operations seem to have ended on 2nd June 1942 and the crew resumed daylight operations from 3rd June.

Does anyone have more information on this now?

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

A fine Teige photo:
http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.n...a.asp?vnum=984
and his kill list:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=218143
Michael

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Good morning Tim O.,

can you tell me the final total score of Erich Horn ?

Michael

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hi Michael

I only know of the 5 recorded above.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Hello Tim,

and all of these 5 kills of Erich Horn were scored in the He 111, weren't they ?

Have a nice Saturday,

Michael

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Yes, as KG53 only operated the He111 for their missions. The 15th Staffel is the only exception to this rule.

Which means that not just Lt. Horn’s claims, but all claims made by members of KG53 were scored in the He111.

Regards, Thomas

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Thomas is of course correct.

Re: KG 53 night claims
 

Good morning Gentlemen,

is it true that all of Arnold Döring's 10 He 111 kills were scored with KG 55 ?

Cheers,

Michael