Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)

- Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)

- - Ta152 loss (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=48464)

On April 14, 1945 a Ta152 with JG301 was downed in aerial combat. The pilot, Ofw. Josef Sattler, was killed, sadly. I'm interested in learning the WNr. of that airplane and information on the military service of Josef Sattler, including the number of kills attributed to him. Thank you

Hi Stephen,

Willi Reschke's book about the history of JG 301 & 302 does not mention a WerkeNr. In the index of victories, I can find 3 victories:

1. 09/06/1944 2./JG 302 a B-24 , 10.06 hrs , München, (HSS)
2. 26/06/1944 2./JG 302 a B-24 , 09.22 hrs , Deutsch-Wagram
3. 26/06/1944 2./JG 302 a P-51 , 09.26 hrs , Deutsch-Wagram

Hope this helps, kind regards,

Dirk

The combat of April 14, 1945.

http://clocloz.altervista.org/histor...14-4-1945.html

Doesn't have any WNr tho.

Hi Dirk,

Thank for your reply. The information you provided on Ofw. Sattler's air victories is exactly what I was hoping to learn.

Best regards,
Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT (Post 235490)

Hi Kutscha,

Thank you for pointing out that link. The analysis of the events that would cost Ofw. Sattler his life is very detailed, informative. Good graphics, too.

Best regards,
Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutscha (Post 235498)

The combat of April 14, 1945.

http://clocloz.altervista.org/histor...14-4-1945.html

Doesn't have any WNr tho.

You're welcome Steve.
Dirk

These links show a piece of the wreckage from Ofw. Sattler's downed Ta152. Including a data plate, the piece is reportedly from the fuselage.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/g4md8f...wz/Ta152-1.jpg

http://www.mediafire.com/view/qh6dta...ve/Ta152-2.jpg

The plate is marked:

8 152 k56
F 510
pk^ 0101

I would appreciate any additional information about these markings. Also, I am still hoping to learn this airplane's WNr.

Thank you,
Steve

Hi Steve

What information do you connect this plate with Sattler´s Ta152 ???
Very mysterious !!!

The plate is an assembly type plate from the inside of the fuselage.
With this type plate you will not get any information about the WNr.

The seller also gave not info:

---> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wehrmacht-Luf...p2047675.l2557

---> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wehrmacht-Luf...vip=true&rt=nc

Hi Christoph,

Good to hear from you! Further investigation as to the source and origin of the piece connected it to that event. In this instance, as it sometimes is with such relics, trust was also a factor. There is no aircraft WNr. on either plate. So far, unfortunately, that number has not been revealed otherwise, at least that I am aware of. Perhaps in time...

With regards,
Steve

P.S. Yesterday, I replied to Frank B. I hope the photos of the piece shown here will appear on the Ta152 site. Enjoy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutscha (Post 235498)

The combat of April 14, 1945.

http://clocloz.altervista.org/histor...14-4-1945.html

Doesn't have any WNr tho.

Hello
I do`nt believe that Shaw shot down Sattler. The Combat report from Shaw states that he shot down a Fw190 with east course. I think, it was the Fw190 of Skupina, which crashed near Garlin. Eyewitnesses from Garlin saw a lone Fw190 with east course and two "American" fighterplanes. If Shaw know his position not exactly so he could mistook Grabow with Ludwigslust. 10km SE of the town what he means as Ludwigslust there is Garlin. For me W/O never shot down Ofw.Sattler and his Ta152.

Greetings, Rene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiner (Post 236494)

An enough worthwhile hypothesis, but there are some points which make me think that it's unlikely it's right.

1) First, Shaw didn't simply reported that the Fw190 was flying towards East, he reported that the E/A repeatedly broke from East to West (even before the fatal approach of the Tempest).

"I saw a single Fw.190 flying east at deck level ... The 190 broke ... the E/A straightened out east ... the 190 broke rather later & again to port ... It was a full deflection shot & I opened fire ... I fired a long burst ... flames appeared from the port side".

It means that the Fw was hit on the port (i.e. left) side while he was flying toward West (after some previous breaks), by Shaw positioned South respect to the German and flying towards NW (to fire his deflection shot).
So we haven't a Fw "flying with East course" but a repeatedly turning Fw that was shot down while flying towards West.

2) The repeated breaking is really consistent with an unaware pilot (Sattler) trying to catch sight of his comrades already engaged into the near battle.
Had Skupina, flying alone, quite so good reasons to break again and again instead of running straigth toward East?

3) Garlin is about 20 km far from to Ludwigslust, not just 10 km.
20 km, especially into that war scene, are a not-so-negligible distance even for planes, for example is the DOUBLE distance from Neustadt-Glewe to Ludwigslust.
And is HALF of the distance from Ludwigslust to Perleberg, which is the area covered by the Armed Recce of the four 486 Squadron Tempests. So the correct location identification given by Shaw for Garlin area in his report should have been "at half route from Ludwigslust to Perleberg", not near Ludwigslust, even if Shaw didn't knew the name of Garlin village.
So, could it be that Shaw mistook Garlin for Ludwigslust? Of course it could be, but IMHO it's more likely that he didn't.

4) We would also think that witnesses did't recognize British insigna and mistook Tempest for "American planes".
Again, it could be possible but Tempests are so different from P-47 or P-51, for colour (camouflaged vs usually silver) even more than for shape and insigna, that German citizen used to look every day at enemy aircraft on their heads, at low heigths, should had little difficulty to recognize correctly.
Obviously, it could be that "American" here just means "enemy Allied planes" but this should be verified.

All in all, I think that the "Skupina hypothesis" could have no more than 20-30% chance to be right.

However, more investigations would be good.

Hello
I would like to get in contact with the creator of this website:
http://clocloz.altervista.org/histor...14-4-1945.html

I took a look at the interesting drawings of the dogfights betweenTempest and Ta152. I ask myself, if Shaw and Brooker shot down Sattler, why they leaved the area without help for Mitchell and Short? There was certainly radio contact between them?
I stick to my "Skupina" hypothesis, it's just a hypothesis. Both swarms have separated for armed reconnaissance. One in the direction of Ludwigslust and one towards Perleberg. Mitchell and Short were attacked by the Ta152. The other two were too far south east and came too late for help. They certainly would not have left their comrades alone.
Greetings, Rene

Hello
Since my last post in 2018, I have looked a little more closely at the events of April 14, 1945. I have read the ORB of the 486th sqdn and the combat reports. I have also read Cescottie's statements from the 1992 Jägerblatt, which are different in his 2012 book "Langstreckenflug", where he confirms Willi Reschke's report. Two weeks ago I was in Neustadt-Glewe and was able to determine where Josef Sattler died. This is not 8 km SW of Neustadt-Glewe as often reported, but about 10 km NW of Neustadt-Glewe. The air combat between Short/Mitchell and the two Ta152 where north of Ludwigslust, while Brooker and Shaw shot down a Fw190 10 miles (16 km) SE of Ludwigslust. Sattler and Mitchell were buried on April 16, 1945. Not side by side! Sattler was buried in the honorary section and Mitchell was buried as an "unknown Englishman" in the section where Russian prisoners were buried.
Rene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiner (Post 338849)

Thanks for the follow-up

If you don't already know it, I'd recommend Axel Urbanke's excellent article on Ta 152 operations in Luftwaffe im Focus No. 29.

Hi Nick

Yes, I know the article from Luftwaffe in Focus. I wouldn't call the article excellent. Some things are new to me, others aren't. The map sketches are very bad. Sachau is west of Berlin and not south-west. I could name a few other things, but I don't want it. Another small example. In the same LiF page 2 and 3. Additions/corrections to Edition 17, photo L2. This non-commissioned officer is a radio operator and not a pilot. His radio operator badge is clearly visible. Now to April 14, 1945. This article is based entirely on Cescotti's statement in Jägerblatt 3/1992. That is wrong! In 2012, Cescotti confirmed Willi Reschke's statement in his book "Langstreckenflug". I don't want to say much about the individual passages, but I don't think Cescotti could see the air battle more than 10 km away from the ground. It is fairly flat land, with forests and the town is in between. The fact is that Sattler's crashsite is 10km NW of Neustadt Glewe. I was told where Sattler and Mitchell crashed, but I didn't have time to visit them in person. They are actually a few hundred meters apart. No, this April 14, 1945 near Ludwigslust was differently than it was portrayed in the LiF.
Rene

Rene
Slightly off topic, are you particularly interested in the area Schwerin-Neustadt, or is it just a coincidence?
Franek

Hello Franek
The Schwerin-Neustadt Glewe area is not my area. I have been searching and researching north and east of Berlin for more than 30 years. I am in Garlin several times a year and Kurt-Georg Skupina, killed in air combat on April 14, 1945, is buried there. This grave piqued my interest and so I carried out further research when I had time.
Rene

Hello
Sorry for late response, but I got 500 return.
A pity, as I would really like to solve few issues from the area, and I think only a local person could answer questions.
NE Berlin you say, I may have few, rather really few questions, if you do not mind answering.
Cheers
Franek

Hi Franek
How can I help you?
Rene

Hello
Now you can watch the combat films by Short, Brooker and Shaw from April 14, 1945 on the Internet. In Short's last sequence you can see a piece of an airplane on the far right. The type is not recognizable, and according to the facts it can only be a Ta152. Brooker and Shaw attacked a Fw190, which Shaw shot down. In Brooker's combat film you can see the burning Fw190 (not a Ta152!!!), which he himself is still shooting at. He also films the burning crash site. The village in the background of the flying, burning Fw190 is definitely the village Dargard. The flight direction of the burning Fw190 is in the direction of the village Garlin. The impact point can be clearly identified as the mill ditch near Garlin. This proves that Brooker and Shaw were not in aerial combat with the Ta152 and therefore never shot down Sattler. The link is https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/25145.

Brooker's film started at 11:20. In the settings at the bottom right, set it to 0.25X so that the film runs slowly.
Rene