3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Dear all,

There is a grave stone on Sittard War Cemetary of a coll. grave of 3 unknown RAF airmen, reference 6 K, see enclosed photo.

Research in old church documents show that these 3 men may have been buried on 1th January 1945, their deaths may however occured earlier. So far we have not been able to link these unidentified victims to any British loss, but I don't have records of losses at the 2nd TAF or perhaps other RAF Commands.

Who can help? Any hint is most appreciated !
Best regards, Marcel

PS. we have thought about Lancaster ME647 of 166 Sqdn. which crashed near Eygelshoven in the night of 31th December 1944/1th January 1945, but this crew of 7 are buried at Nederweert War Cemetary, no missing members.

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

oops, and now with picture

:o Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello
Maybe Lancaster ME-321 75Sqn ? 1/1/1945

Regards
Phil

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Dear Phil

Thank you for your suggestion, this Lancaster ME321 had quite a lot aircrew members that went missing but it seems unlogical to bury these men far more north than Maastricht where they perished. It is quite intriguing therefore thanks for your help!

Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Marcel,

Have you thought about escaped pow's ?

I seem to remember some time ago that three graves were found in a forest or wood, but that I think was in Poland.

If these three airmen you ask about were buried on the date you give it could well be that their aircraft crashed on an earlier day.

Just think that the wreckage would be searched, remains removed identification attempted then perhaps temporarily buried near the aircraft before being removed for proper burial at some nearby cemetery, then post war perhaps removed yet again to where they now rest.

Of interest the CWGC site has -
Sittard General Cemetery - 20 graves, none seem to be airmen. Only one grave is "unknown".
Sittard War Grave - 200 plus only 3 are airmen. Date for two is 2/2/45 the third is 8/2/45.

Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Alex,

Thank you for your thoughts and I must admit I haven't thought about escaped POW's. But: if we assume that POW's don't move around the countryside in their RAF flying gear, they would have obtained civil clothes from the underground escape lines. So, if they cannot easily be identified as RAF members, how could they be buried as unknown RAF airmen and never been identified post war?

Your second explanation is perhaps a better one and I try to look at all RAF losses in the previous weeks before 1-1-1945.

Could you help me out with your remark about Sittard War Cemetary? On the CWGC website I find 234 dead on this cemetary and the description reads this:

Historical Information
The burials in the cemetery, apart from a few dating from November 1944, are almost all from the months of January and February 1945. The men buried here belong mostly to the Scottish regiments of the 52nd (Lowland) Division, engaged in the battle in this vicinity from 18th to 24th January 1945, which had as its object the clearing of a salient west of the River Roer which was still held by the Germans.

I did download the spreadsheet with casualties but this list does not the unknown or do you have other information?

Again many thanks for your reply! Best regards, Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hi Marcel,

Have you consulted the Red Cross Archives at The Hague? The burial records may provide info about when and where or under which circumstances the bodies were found.

Regards,
Hans

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Marcel,
Thanks for the reply,
Sorry to say that the online CWGC site does not (as yet) list the Unknowns. Reason is perhaps it is that they are unknown. I would say that it would be a help to researchers if their plot numbers were listed along with arm of service, such as Army or Air force that is if it is known, and a date .
I think that the answer may well be found if you follow the guidance that Hans gave in his post.

Good hunting,
Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Marcel,
The three airmen that I noted have each a grave. They are the only airmen in the CWGC site list for Sittard War Cemetery. Two are from a Mosquito crash ( 2/2/45) and then the third a few days later(8/2/45).
From the Sittard General Cemetery list there appear to be NO airmen at all, but that again excludes any "Unknowns" .
I wonder if -
Suppose that these three airmen were originally placed in a group grave as unknowns and then at some later date it was found who they were and reburied in separate graves , then the original headstone left in place ?

Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Hans and Alex,

Thank you both for your valuable contributions to this mystery.

Hans
thank you for this suggestion, Marleen and I will send them a request. What puzzles me is that even the CWGC seems not to know where these victims came from. There must a RAF command which lost 3 men in the wider area (Germany included) of Sittard.

Alex
I followed your hints and you are partially right: those 3 men in separate graves can be traced to the losses you have mentioned, but I am searching for a loss of which 3 unidentified RAF members were buried in one grave (K6) at the Sittard War Cemetary.

The hunt goes on ! Have a nice Sunday ! Best regards,
Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello,

You will find the listing for Collective grave K.6 (Sittard War Cemetery), in the Grave Registration Report of 228613 Lt William Leslie CARR DLI, BA - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...LLIAM%20LESLIE

It won't tell you anything that we don't already know!

Col.

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello

Yes, we had that document already but thank you nevertheless :)

Best regards, Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello,


Based on the CWGC document we can presume that the 3 unknown airmen were not buried at another location/cemetery earlier.


As they are buried as unknown they are mentioned on the Runnymede Memorial. After making a download of all mentioned on the Runnymede Memorial it is possible to sort the results per date and then per Squadron. If we presume that the 3 unknown airmen were killed on the same date, were of the same squadron and there are 3 unknown of one aircraft the number of possibilities are reduced. Has this already been tried ?



Looking forward to receive your comments !


Best regards from Belgium
Met vriendelijke groeten vanuit België


Luc

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello,
Have done the Runnymede Memorial list for 1/1/45.
This was what I found.
1/2-1-45
75 Sqdn - Lancaster III - ME321 - AA-N
W/C. R.J.Newton DFC MiD - RNZAF
P/O. R.J.Atchison - 429286 - RNZAF
F/Sgt. J.S.Hoskins - 652139 - RAFVR
Sgt. H. Sansome - 1583772 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. A. Lee - 1622893 - RAFVR
Sgt. V.J.Clark - 1811271 - RAFVR
Sgt. M. Brennan - 1596812 RAFVR - Jonkerbos War Cemetery.
Sgt. L.J.Cooke - 3051677 - RAFVR
Crashed near the Dutch town of Maastricht (BCL vol 6 page 26 ).

31/12/44-1/1/45
83 Sqdn - Lancaster III - PB134 - OL-N
F/O. G.W.Duggan - 418362 - RAAF
F/Sgt G.J.A.Groom - 1284873 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. S.J.S.Maynard - 1801363 - RAFVR - Moss Civil Cemetery, Norway
F/Sgt. S. Brockbank - 1543556 - RAFVR
W/O. F.J. Poole, DFM - 655599 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. R.Kear - 1314473 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. H.T.Little - 1893906 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. H. Jones -2218793 - RAFVR
Believed crashed in Oslo Fjord between Horten and Moss( BCL vol 5 page 526).

31/12/44-1/1/45
630 Sqdn - Lancaster I - PB894 - LE-
W/O.E.A.Thomas - 132619 - RAFVR
Sgt. D.D.Jones - 1404691- RAFVR
F/Sgt. E. Leese - 1579463 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. J.H.Jones - 1316189 - RAFVR
F/Sgt. W.H.McD. Marshall - 1564879 - RAFVR
Sgt. B.J.Phillips - 1897422 - RAFVR
Sgt. G.R.Boden - 1695305 - RAFVR
Lost without trace ( BCL vol 5 page 526 ).

Hope this a help

I won't list them here but have checked -
31/12/44 eighteen airmen, aircraft were - Hurricane LF369; Mosquito FB.VI - HP922; Lancaster III - PB134; Stirling IV- LK283 and LJ914;
30/12/44 eighteen airmen, aircraft were - Typhoon In - JR332; Tempest - EJ522; Beaufighter - NV179; Lancaster III - PB525; Lancaster I - PD325;
29/12/44 - None.
28/12/44 One airman, aircraft was Beaufighter TF.X - NV419.

Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Dear Luc and Alex,

Thank you both for your Smart suggestions, I did not know that it was possible to get the complete data from the Runnymede panels, perfect !

Luc
I also think that it would be logical to assume that these 3 come from 1 loss, but as I have discovered, logic is not always the best advisor in searches like these. Therefore, this is option 1. Option 2 is that grave K6 contains the mortal remains of 3 different losses but statistically this is not likely. Option 3 could be, that unidentified mortal remains (of three victims) from different losses in the area around Sittard were buried in one grave.

Alex
Nice job and thank you for assembling these interesting facts which I will try to compare with the 2nd TAF volumes of Chris Shores and Chris Thomas. Just a moment ago I imported the CSV file with names from the Runnymede Panels into Excel but I don't see there double names. Will check the ordered 'target for tonight' of Lancaster PB894. If this bomber went to Norway too, their loss will not have occurred in the region Sittard I am afraid.

I still believe that a request to the CWGC what they possibly could tell about grave 6K, might solve the mystery. They MUST know something...

I will keep you informed. Oh, by the way: Lancaster ME431 came down near Eygelshoven which is pretty northeast of Maastricht in the direction of Kerkrade, and thus nearer to Sittard than Maastricht.

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello,

My assumption would be as you earlier suggested, three airmen from the same crew/aircraft.
That would be three crew of PB894.

ME321 was on the night of 1st/2nd so if buried on the 1st this loss was after the burial.

While as you say PB134 was lost over Norway.

That leaves only PB894 for them to be found and buried on the 1st.

Re ME431 What date do you have ?

ME431 - 1661 CU Jan45; 279 Sqn Aug 45; 5 MU; Scrap Jan 48.

Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

PB894 went down in the North Sea off Denmark according to this link:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=159515

Lancaster PB894 lost North Sea, 50 km. North West Hanstholm, Denmark, 31 Dec 1944.

"Missing on Gardening mission. Took off from RAF East Kirby at 1620 hrs for operations over the Kattegat."
"Intercepted at 2.800 mtrs. and shot down by Hptm. Eduard Schröder (1) of 3./NJG3. The aircraft crashed at 21.00 hrs into the North Sea some 50 km. North West of Hanstholm. "


For ME321: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=49319
It says that plane went down at: Vilt, gemeente Berg en Terblijt

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Roland,
Thanks for the update re PB894, this now is also no longer a possibility it seems.
So back to the start, 3 unknown airmen in a group grave.
Alex

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Regarding 75 Squadron Lancaster ME321.

1. Crashed at map grid square K.642528 (in an orchard near Vilt, at the rear of the farm of Mr J. Moessen. beside the road between Berg and Valkenburg). The Lancaster impacted with great force and all that was left on the surface were small fragments and a deep crater.

2. American personnel removed portions of human remains on the day following the crash, for burial. The British could find no evidence that a burial was made by the Americans at Margraten or Henri Chapelle American cemeteries.

3. Locals stated that some ramains were still at the crash site after the Americans left, although all the locals found to hand over to the British investigators were the dogtags of W/Op Sgt Clark, a small medallion, and a partly burnt photo. By the time the British investigators examined the scene of the crash, the crater left from the explosion had been filled in.

4. The British investigators visited the British Military Cemetery at Ophoven (i.e. Sittard) and viewed grave K.6 marked "3 UNKNOWN BRITISH AIRMEN". The Cemetery Registery, compiled by the Red Cross, recorded the date of death or date of burial as "1.1.45." (the British found the records to be ambiguous over date of death versus date of burial). Checks were made throughout the Sittard area to establish where the remains in K.6 came from, without success. The British investigators thought the remains possibly came from the crash site of ME321, but had no proof.

5. Grave K.6 at Sittard was exhumed, but yielded no evidence to positively identify the remains. Without other evidence to prove the remains came from the crash at Vilt, the Air Ministry decided the grave was to remain as "3 Unknown airmen."

6. A decision was made by the Air Ministry not to exhume the crash site crater at Vilt to look for further human remains, because the Americans had used the large crash site crater as a refuse dump, later filling it with 14 truck-loads of earth, before smoothing out the ground. The Air Ministry decided that digging operations would be useless.

7. The Lancaster was identified by serial numbers on control surface fragments found on the ground by the Americans (the American unit that initially reported the crash to RAF No. 85 Group was "4CATC"). Regarding human remains and salvage, the American signal, made on 5 January, states "(D) believed all killed - small portions wreckage. (E) still in crater. (F) not known guns A1B. No. (H) aircraft exploded on impact completely disintergrated. Engines and propellers buried in crater Cat E2 Burnt. (j) No. 2A 3 BRU Pass to Army salvage."

Cheers

Rod

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello guys,

Thank you all for the support, it encourages me to think all existing info over again. If one grave can contain mortal remains of 3 RAF airmen, it seems obvious that the CWGC should KNOW that the parts originate from 3 different persons and that they belonged to the RAF. Perhaps we should put it otherwise: the CWGC knows from other research where these mortal remains comes from, but they were not able to identify these parts to specific air crew members and decided to bury them in a collective grave at Sittard War Cemetary.

Therefore I suggest that we postpone further speculations until a request to the CWGC results in new information or definite answers. As far I can see now, there is no loss which can be linked to these 3 unknown.

I will keep you informed ! Best regards,

Marcel

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hi Marcel,

see post 19...

The CWGC took "ownership" of the graves after the British Air Ministry investigation.

What the Air Ministry established at Sittard was K.6 contained "3 Unknown British Airmen", all obviously buried in one grave at the same time, but with no record of where the remains were recovered from.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 3 graves unknown RAF members Sittard
 

Hello Rod,

Thank you very much for this major leap forward ! When I wrote posting #20 I had not seen your posting #19, so our postings crossed eachother I guess.

If I summarize all the known data and findings, than we can say that there is NO hard evidence that the remains in K6 came from ME321, but as
1) Lancaster ME321 is the only bomber with unidenfified human remains which crashed on 1-1-1945,
2) American troups took human remains from the crash location to another place but NOT to any of the American War Cemetaries at Margraten or Henri Chapelle
3) grave K6 at Sittard-Ophoven is a collective grave for 3 unknown RAF-men who died on 1-1-1945
it seems that the Americans took the human remains found at the crash location of Lancaster Me321 to the most nearby British War Cemetary which was at Sittard.

This guys proves the power of the TOCH: exchange of thoughts, information and analysis strengths ! Many, many thanks and compliments to all of you!

Best regards, Marcel