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Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good morning Gentlemen,
we know that the F4F/FM-1 scored a total of 1012 kills. Is it possible to find out how many of these were F4F kills and how many were FM-1 kills, rescpectively ? Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Hi Michael
the noted Naval Aviation author Barrett Tillman has arrived at these figures ( other sources can vary but I'd go with Barrett). US Navy F4Fs.......520.5 US Marine F4Fs.....562.0 US Navy FMs........432.0 ( 422 by FM-2s). This would suggest 10 by FM-1s; as these were operating in the Atlantic on CVEs they had few opportunities for claims. Many FM-2 victories were Kamikazes. **Please note these are only victories by US Wildcats not including a few by Royal Navy Martlets / Wildcats ( Barrett says 67). Regards Nick |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
According to Squadron/Signal #191 on the F4F, 311 FM-1 were delivered to the FAA (as Martlet MkV), equipping 36 squadrons ....... no indication of kills, only that a He111 and Fw200 were shot down by 881Sq on 12/2/44. They saw action from Feb 1944 in attacking the Tirpitz, the invasion of southern France and the far East.
340 FM-2 were delivered to the FAA as Wildcat MkVI, from August 1944. Mention is made of 4 Bf109G claims on 26/3/45 off the Norwegian coast. Cheers Peter |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Hello Nick & Peter,
very interesting. Barrett Tillman's F4F total of 1082,5 is slightly higher than the 1002 implied by Robert Allen's table. The production figures given in the internet for the F4F, FM1 and FM2, respectively vary considerably. Can you tell me which source is the most valid ? Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
I use this list of Bu.Aer. serials from Joe's site but was checked against several publications as follow ( which vary somewhat)..........
http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/navyserials.html "United States Navy and Marine Corps fighters 1918-1962 " (Harleyford). "United States Navy aircraft since 1911" (Putnam). "The Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat" ( F L Greene). As far as I know this is as accurate as possible. This includes Martlets / Wildcats under British and Commonwealth contracts ie. Martlet I to Wildcat VI. Regards Nick |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good morning Nick,
thanks for the figures. Would you say that all of the FM-1's 10 kills were scored against the Japanese ? Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Hi Michael. Both FM-1s and FM-2s were in the anti-submarine groups on CVEs in the ATLANTIC 1943-45; so few air claims. The PACIFIC escort and A/S air groups only had FM-2s so it's almost certain that all their victories were Japanese. The squadrons were VCs ( Composite with TBMs) and in the Atlantic they had A/S camouflage schemes 1 and 2.
In the ATLANTIC the A/S escort carriers March-Dec. 1943 were Bogue, Croatan, Santee, Core, Card and Block Island. From Jan. - Oct. 1944 they were Block Is., Bogue, Guadalcanal, Croatan, Solomons, Wake Is., Card, Tripoli and Mission Bay. From March - May 1945 they were Mission Bay, Core, Bogue and Croatan; the gap in operations was because the Biscay U-boat ports had been captured after D-Day. This is Steve Sherman's victory list consolidated; this is only PACIFIC so presumably doesn't include the Atlantic FM-1 claims. I doubt the exact figures will ever be known. Nick http://acepilots.com/planes/air_wins.html |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good morning Nick,
the Robert Allen list indicates:
I wish you a good weekend, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
The FM-1 entered squadron service in January 1943 and operated interchangeably with the F4F-4 within those squadrons. I don't really see the point in trying to identify FM-1 claims separately.
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
F4F Results USN (All) from Olynyk, credits = 522
FM-2 Results USN (All) from Olynyk, credits = 428 F4F Results USN (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 449 F4F Results USN (other than VF & VTB) from Olynyk, credits = 40 F4F USMC Results (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 457 FM-2 Results USN (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 422 FM-2 Results USN (other than VF & VTB) from Olynyk, credits = 12 Martlets of various stripes from various sources, my count, credits = 54 NACSWW2 = Naval Aviation Combat Statistics-World War2, a BuAer publication, circa 1946 I am unaware of any credits which could be specifically laid to FM-1s. There were some small number of them in combat areas in the Pacific, but I don’t think they had any exposures to or encounters with enemy aircraft. The USN specifically identifies credits to FMs. Since the FM-1 was essentially an F4F-4 clone (although only the first 10 produced had six guns, the rest had four), as I interpret the USN documentation, the FM-2 was considered by the practitioners sufficiently different from the Grumman F4F-x/Eastern FM-1 types to be counted separately. |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Hello Leonard,
thanks for that interesting breakdown. For my birthday my wife endowed me with Barrett Tillman's "Wildcat Aces of World War 2" (1995). He Mr. Tillman explicitly writes:
Have a nice weekend, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
No offense, but it looks like you are trying to back into a result.
Better to look at FM-1s in terms of exposure to combat operations and any credited results there from. There were two squadrons equipped with FM-1s that made it to a combat zone of which I am aware, VC-39 aboard USS Liscome Bay and VC-33 aboard USS Coral Sea. Liscome Bay departed San Diego on 21 October 1943 and after a stop at Pearl Harbor participated in operations in the Gilberts until sunk by a Japanese submarine on 24 November. There were no, say again no, enemy aircraft credited to VC-39 during this period. Fourteen VC-39 officers were lost with the ship. Coral Sea departed San Diego on 9 September 1943 and after the obligatory stop at Pearl Harbor also participated in operations in the Gilberts. On release from the operation. Coral Sea returned to Pearl Harbor and from thence on to San Diego, arriving on 14 December 1943. There were no enemy aircraft credited to VC-33 during this period and a quick check of the combat report show the FM-1s were utilized for CAP (no contacts) and for strafing enemy ground positions. Supposedly VC-33/Coral Sea embarked new aircraft while on the west coast, but I can find the squadron still operating a complement FM1s, FM-2s, and F4F-4s as late as 18 April 1943 in the BuAer Aircraft Location Report with a change-over to FM-2s showing up sometime around 25 April 1942. So, as one looks deeper, we can find that on 6 April 1943, LTJG Robert Nicholls Glasgow of VF-33 was credited with shooting down a G4M. BUT, and it is a big one, the Aircraft Action Report clearly identifies the aircraft flown by LTJG Glasgow as an FM-2. An interesting line in the report reads, “. . . The enemy did not jettison gas or bombs, probably mistaking FM2 for F4F.” See note below regarding the timing of the Aircraft Location Reports. Glasgow was killed on 14 October 1958 in a crash while a member of the Blue Angels. So, still not a credit for the FM-1. So, just working the numbers does not always lead to the correct answer. Your 10 aircraft difference in the total credits for the types is not particularly unusual and certainly is not indicative of FM-1 credits. Sources: BuAer Aircraft Locations reports from 31 May 1943, when FM-1s first start appearing in squadron inventories through 18 April 1943 when FM-1s no longer appear in the inventories of combat type squadrons. BuAer Aircraft Location reports were published on a weekly basis and provide the complements of combat type squadrons and their support activities. There are a couple of things to remember when using these . . . 1 – the reports are forwarded to and compiled at BuAer so a report dated, say, 14 August 1943, is really showing the complement anywhere from five to four days before; something to keep in mind. 2 – Someone in early 1942 was being overly security conscious so what you see in the reports up through the summer of 1942 is not exactly accurate, and in some cases wildly inaccurate. This problem smooths out after that, my guess is that someone realized that the good guys were the ones reading the report and they needed to know what was going on. VC-33 Aircraft Action Report #1, 20-21 November 1943 VC-33 Aircraft Action Report #3, 6 April 1944 Action Report USS Liscome Bay (CVE-56) 16 December 1943 Olynky, Frank J., USN Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat World War2 (1982) Barrett’s Wildcat Aces of World War 2 is another nice treatment of Wildcat esoterica. If you look at the F4F Profile # 14 on page 43 . . . that’s my father’s airplane (at least in my copy). I have the panel you can see below and forward of the canopy with the VF-11 squadron insignia. He also appears on page 11, fourth from left, front row, in the picture of the aviators of VF-42 aboard Yorktown (CV-5). A rainy Saturday, good for nosing around in old records. Regards, Rich |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Don't know how I did that. Thanks for the extra eyes, duly corrected.
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
The only USN FM-1 claim that I am aware of is by Lt(jg) Harold Gordon Hyde, of VC-6, for a damaged Do-217D on December 22, 1943 at 1130, location 6 m, 152 deg from 46-50N, 17-50W.
The Fleet Air Arm has claims for 12 and two half shares with the Wildcat V (FM-1) according to my files. The half shares are with the Wildcat IV. Enjoy! Frank. |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good evening Gentlemen,
according to Barrett Tillman's publication "The Wilder Wildcat" the F4F-3/4 scored 905 kills which is 177,5 kills less than the tally for the USN+USMC F4F's given in "Wildcat Aces of World War 2". Does that mean that F4F subtypes other than the F4F-3 and the F4F-4 scored 177,5 kills ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Michael,
The only other subtypes of the F4F that saw combat was the F4F-3A and the F4F-7 (photo recon), in the USN. You should probably look at his various publications to see when they were published, and check for comments on sources and conditions on the data. Like, is he including all USN/USMC/FAA claims, or is there a date limit on the numbers. Etc. Enjoy! Frank. |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good evening Frank,
"The Wilder Wildcat" was indeed published 19 years after "Wildcat Aces of World War 2". Is there such a thing like a complete compilation of USN/USMC victories analogous to the USAAF victory lists ? Rich mentioned a book by you about the USN credits. Have a nice Friday, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
For one of his books on the Wildcat Barrett used the 1946 publication "Naval Aviation Combat Statistics, WW2". It can be found online, and can be purchased on CD. He has also used my Victory Lists.
From 1981 to 1998 I published ten Victory Lists, covering all US air-to-air claims (dest/prob/dam) in the 20th Century, plus two RAF lists. 1: USMC; 2: USN; 3: USAAF/Pacific; 4: USAAF/AVG CBI; 5: USAAF ETO; 6: USAAF MTO; 7: RAF 400 Series Squadrons; 8: RAF 300 Series Squadrons; 9: US WW1; 10: US Post WW2. These are now all out of print, and frequently command stupid prices from Internet dealers. My intention is to update and bring them back into print, probably around the time the Mediterranean Air War series is wrapped. The two RAF volumes will not be reprinted, but I plan several volumes covering the RAF and associated air forces. And some other new volumes. I also published in 1995 a book on the American aces, based on my Victory Lists. I continue to gather information and research other aerial combat subjects of interest to me, which I hope to publish eventually. Enjoy! Frank. |
Franks' victories lists
For those not familiar with Frank's lists they are the sine qua non of such things and need to be in the collections of any researcher.
I'm delighted that he plans to republish them as I missed several! |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Yes, I would be happy to be one of the first buyers of the re-issues.
Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Frank,
Firstly, might I take the the opportunity to thank you for signing and dedicating my copy of 5: USAAF ETO whilst you were in Melbourne a few years ago (attending a Sci-Fi convention, I believe). When I returned to Hyland's Bookshop to pick up the book you had already left - so, a belated Thank You! I, and quite a few others, would be quite prepared to take up a subscription, with partial pre-payment, to assist in production costs for any reprints. With firm orders, it might just shorten the wait time. Col. |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good evening,
I nearly finished working through the cool OSPREY volume "Wildcat Aces of World War 1" from which I learned that the Wildcat produced more Medal of Honor recipients (8) than any other single-engined plane of the US forces. Does that mean some multi-engined plane produced more ? The B-17 ? The P-38 ? Have a nice Sunday, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Thanks for that tidbit Michael.
I only had 7 in my lists, so I checked the book and followed up - the eighth is Henry T Elrod who was not an ace and whose fighting time spanned only 12 days on Wake Island. He shot down 2 a/c, sunk a destroyer (his bombs hit the depth charges), carried out strafing attacks, and when all the squadron's a/c on the island were destroyed, he organised the ground defences, repulsing repeated enemy attacks. He was mortally wounded while protecting his men who were getting ammo for a gun emplacement. Not detracting in any way from his courageous and exceptional acts, this one is possibly more appropriately characterised as a MO recipient who also flew the F4F. Cheers |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good evening Peter,
and did any multi-engined type produce more Medal of Honor recipients ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Haven't got that far yet Michael. I went through the MO recipients' list only a couple of weeks ago and noticed quite a few bomber crews, but I wasn't focussing on them at the time so didn't take notes. Maybe one of my next projects. It's a long list, though, and if they were Marine Corps or Navy it doesn't tell you if they were ground or air forces. I would think the majority would be in the Army Air Force.
Best I can do at the moment is Bong and McGuire in P-38s. Cheers Peter |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
You got me going on this so I had a quick look through the list, focusing on Army Air Force - the result is not surprising. I hope I didn't miss any.
B-17 - 16 B-24 - 9 5 MoHs were given to B-24 crew after the Ploesti raid. 2 were given to 2 members of the crew of the same B-17 in the same mission. Many of the feats were quite amazing, but check out John C Morgan, co-pilot of a B-17F - a cut and paste from Wiki - Morgan's experience began as his group formation neared the German coast. The B-17, nicknamed Ruthie II, was attacked by a large number of Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighters and had part of its oxygen system to the gunners' positions in the rear of the aircraft knocked out. The first burst of fire also smashed the cockpit's windshield, damaged the interphone, and split open the skull of pilot Lt. Robert Campbell. The pilot's upper body slumped over his control wheel, causing it to start out of control. F/O Morgan seized the controls on his side and by sheer strength pulled the plane back into formation. The disabled pilot continued to try to wrest the controls away from Morgan and smashed at the co-pilot with his fists, knocking some teeth loose and blackening both his eyes. Meanwhile, the top turret gunner was also seriously injured when a 20 mm shell tore off his left arm at the shoulder. He fell out of the turret position, and was found by the navigator bleeding to death. The navigator bailed the gunner out of the aircraft in a successful effort to save his life. Unknown to Morgan, the waist, tail and radio gunners became unconscious from lack of oxygen and were threatened with death by anoxia. Morgan, unable to call for assistance because of the damaged interphone, had to decide whether to turn back immediately or try to fly all the way to the target and back within the protection of the formation. He also had to decide whether or not to subject Campbell to anoxia by cutting off his oxygen to disable him. In spite of wild efforts by the fatally wounded pilot to seize the controls, Morgan chose to complete the mission and not cut off his pilot's oxygen supply. For two hours he held position in the formation - flying with one hand, fighting off the pilot with the other. At length the navigator entered the flight deck and relieved the situation. The navigator and bombardier secured the dying pilot in the nose compartment of the airplane. F/O Morgan's B-17 reached the target at Hanover and successfully dropped its bombs. With all his fuel gauges reading empty, Morgan landed the bomber at RAF Foulsham. Lt. Campbell died an hour and half later, and the five surviving gunners recovered from various degrees of frostbite. The B-17 was declared damaged beyond economical repair and never flew again. Talk about total chaos. Cheers |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Wow, that's just like a horror movie...
Thanks for checking and posting. As a mothertongue speaker, can you tell me what Martlet means ? I cannot find the word in any English dictionary. Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
A mythical bird, usually portrayed without legs
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Good morning,
I found it at wikipedia: Merlette, a German word that was unknown to me before. Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories
Quote:
B-17 17 B-24/PB4Y 9 Hueys 9 or 10 F4F 8 F4U 4 DH-4 4 |
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