Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Hi Gentlemen,

I was contacted by a French man who discovered the remains of a Bf 109. The guy has the plates:
MESSERSCHMITT A.G
Sach-Nr: 109.651-02
Werk-Nr: 109.610.005/28

I must admit that I don't find anythjng on this plane and its loss.

Does anyone have an idea?

Thank you
Erik

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Thats because it a plate to a part, not a plate for the aircraft.

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

A more precise location might help as there is little west of Bordeaux

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

I am trying to help: Erik has put me in contact with the French man who found the wreck and there are some clues that may help us.

When I know more (I am waiting for pictures of plates) I come back to you.


Gilles

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Hi Scnautzer, Chris and Gilles,

thank you for the replies. You are far more competent than I on that matter. I will inform you if something comes up.
Cheers
Erik

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Hi guys,

I attach some pictures of the plates found and Steve expressed the following comments on them here under. We therefore would be inclined to say "Emil" aircraft.

I am waiting for the date of the crash (even approximate), that would definitely help.

More pictures follow.

Gillles


"my conclusion is that this airplane was a 109 E or F, not a G. Three images point me in that direction. First, page 26 shows a plate from a KG12 stick grip, likely a KG12A. This type of grip was used on the Bf109 E and F, but not the G. Next, page 16 shows a nice data plate. There, the Hersteller is identified as Bosch, but that is wrong. The proper Hersteller entry on that plate is the code "bop." This code represents Bayerische Flugzeugwerke Regensburh Gmbh. Such codes began appearing on airplane data plates in about 1942. F model production began in late 1940 and ran until, I believe, 1941; I believe that the E model production, which began in 1939, would run until 1942. Finally, there is the plate on page 17 which is hard to read. I would normally associate such a 4-line plate with the Bf109F, but I can rule out its use on 109Es. If I had to narrow it down to just one model, I would say that these parts are from a Bf109E. However, I am not 100 percent certain"

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

more pictures..

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

A good friend just called me confirming that, without doubt, the fuel gauge plate "vorrats anzeig" FL 20723 (second picture of my first mail) is definitely a Emil one.

So, we face a BF109E.

GC

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

I hate to disagree....buuuuuuuuuut...

There is no possible way this is from an E.

100% this is F...without a doubt.

the plates:

109.651-02 is from the ENGINE cowling of an F-K. With the re-design of the engine cowling from E to F, this number "651" was assigned to this new cowling style (the Me109E never used this code). This number was assigned to the Me109F onward...

109.621 (another cowling plate) - started with the Me109F...and ended with the G4.

So there is no possible way this is from an E.

The G model had the KG13A...so the the KG12 stick, along with the data plates, confirm this is an Me109 F wreck.

Fuel gauges were often re-used in all models (E gauge used on a G, for example). The gauges between E and G all indicated the same fuel tank capacity, so they were interchangeable. I have also seen F gauges on G birds.

so 100% this is an Me109F...no other possibilities, as proven by the engine cowling data plates.

Mike

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

beside tearing us apart :), as Chris said, the location may help.

ClinA-78

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Well, I just received more pictures and now, I am very much puzzled..

Your opinion, gents ??

GC

PS: location is North of Arcachon;

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Me109 F Cowling section (seems the locals have used the aluminum for scrap, as they have cut out rectangular sections)

top part of Mutterkompass

:)


Mike

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Mike,

are you 100% sure it is a F ?

(it cannot be a G ?)

Thanks

GC

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Going over to the G model, they went with the KG13 (A/B/C), and as such, the electrical schematics and connections changed with it.

As the electrical coding changed (and the connections different), the KG12 could not really be installed correctly.

Technically one "could" be installed...but it would take some re-wiring.

Very, very highly unlikely it would be a G with a KG12.

;)

Mike

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Thanks Mike. This is reducing the scope of the aircraft concerned.

However, there are still several aircraft concerned (BTW, thanks, Matti, for your data). I think we will definitely need a date even approximate to identify this a/c with certainty.

I expect this date from the gentleman who found theses parts.

I Hope he will manage to get it (witnesses get very rare now).

GC

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

what about the round access hatch being the mutterkompass access hatch ? (Instead of the cowling section)

(since they also found the upper part of the Kompass, as you noticed)

Thus we would have a fuselage portion;

GC

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

no no...

The hinge frame for the cowling latch is on this. 100% it is cowling. The round holes is the hole for the Supercharger Air Scoop. You can see the Anchor Nuts where the scoop bolts onto it.

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

this is G6...so it looks a bit different...but you can see it is the same.

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Might I suggest that we try and get a date and/or location as Mike has, in my opinion, tied it down quite convincingly to being an F (which would match with the location and the proximity of many training units) and we are getting no further forward in identifying this crash itself

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

You are right, Chris, date would a real help: I asked the French gentleman this info. He is searching it, we must be patient.

Location is a few kilometers North of Ares (near Arcachon) but I am afraid this won't help much.

GC

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Hi everybody,

I am the french who found the remains of the aircraft. The only one in my opinion who knew the date is deceased. But, I am trying to consult the archive of my town with the help of my neighbor who has access to it.

I hope to be able to consult them and get more informations on this date

Regards

Jean-Baptiste

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Hi Guys,

I agree with Mike. Not E model.

Best Regards

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

... So ... JGr.West or EJGr.West ??? :)

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Thanks to Matti data, I have been able to sort out 4 A/C:

The one which was found may be one of these, let us hope the date of the crash will be found, we then will have the answer.

GC

21.6.1943 JGr. West Bf 109 F-4 13070 Heimat Fl.Pl. Cazaux 14 West 25/4/9 Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 90 %.

22.7.1943 3./JGr. West Bf 109 F-4 12891 Heimat 18.00.00 Fl.Pl. Cazaux 14 West 25/4/9 Absturz infolge unfreiwilliger Hallenberührung. Bruch 100 %. NVM: 12892.

22.8.1943 4./JGr. West Bf 109 F-4 13293 Heimat 08.35.00 1 km nordöstlich Fl.Pl. Cazaux Absturz bei Notlandung infolge Motorstörung und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.

18.10.1943 3./JGr. West Bf 109 F-4 7653 Heimat 11.15.00 Bei Arès, 12 km nördlich Arcachon Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 80 %.

Re: Bf 109 West of Bordeaux
 

Surely actual mention of Fl.Pl Cazaux (La Teste de Buch?) excludes first 3 and last one would indicate a crash-landing; does evidence support this?