23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

Ladies, Gentlemen,

Having run onto interesting footage of a RAF Mustang of the 65 squadron shooting on a ‘long-nosed FW 190’ who in turn is shooting on a Lancaster. The latter might well be the Lancaster of squadron leader R.A.M. Palmer, who won a posthumous VC for the operation. Ofcourse unknown to all at the time….

In order to keep matters clear, it is suffice to say that Palmer had ended up in the lead position, the 65 squadron were chasing to get close(r) to them being their escort and the JG-26 planes by chance stumbled upon the Palmer group and started to attack.

The German records of the JG-26 indicate the following:
- The Kommandeur (Hackl) shot down the leader of this bombing raid (his 167th kill) which Palmer was not as indicated above, although the Germans would not know the real story, hence it is more than explainable that they considered this to be the case;
- This however did cost the life of fellow JG-26 pilot Werner Frass;
- Frass is further the only one shot down at the time near Koln (timed at 12:50);
- It further is clear that the German fighter attacked by the Mustang of the 65th Squadron is shot down (she has her belly tank still in place and moves sharply to starboard). The combat report of the Mustang clearly indicates (and claims) this, she visibly crashed and is claimed by the RAF pilot;
- It also is assumed that the Lancaster shot at by the German fighter is shot down too: she is clearly hit, and her port (inner) engine is on fire and she is turning to port sharply. The 65 squadron combat report claims the attacked Lancaster further to be ‘in flames’;
- The Lancaster (lead-plane) claimed by the Kommandeur is shot down at 12:54.

Now I do understand that two Lancasters have been shot down near Koln: the PB120 and the PB137. The PB120 crashed two KM short of the target, apparently the Palmer Lancaster more or less on target. The only surviving crewmember of the PB120 again thinks to have been shot at by an ME-109.

The issue here that Werner Frass is NOT credited with a kill and it is highly likely that the Lanc he shot at has gone down too. Further the crash-time of Frass and the Lancaster shot down by Hackl are more or less equal (there is some 4 minutes difference – the Lancaster of Hackl crashed 4 minutes later then Frass – the other timings differ much more). The only two German planes shot down by a P-51 (Mustang) were Frass and a plane near Munster, although Frass is named to be shot down by the 364 Fighter Group (?).

I think, for a variety of reasons, that the Lancaster going down was the one of Palmer. This means that the Kommandeur might well have claimed to have shot down a plane that was actually shot down by Frass, since Frass went down too following the 65 squadron attack…..

Are there any (other) views on this one?

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

In fact II./JG 26 claimed 7 Lancaster (+ the Mustang and a Mosquito, possibly from No. 105 Squadron RAF) during that combat. They did not encounter the 364th FG (which claimed victories near Tier) but No. 65 Squadron RAF which claimed one victory (over Frass) and 2 damaged in the same area.

That being said, it would't surprising that a leader took victory credit of a wingman, dead or not.

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

Seen these Lancaster claims too, but most of these would not fit the 582 and the Koln/Cologne location. In fact, as far as I can dig, there are only 2 Lancasters which do: the earlier '120' (crashing 2 km short of the target - precise address even given) and the later '371' of Palmer (said to have crashed on target - no further detail). The issue is that Palmer is said to have been shot down after bomb release (that's why he got the VC) and also the combat report of the 65 squadron claims that the planes have already dropped their bombs upon the attack(s) taking place. These two combined would indicate the plane being shot by the 65 squadron escort is the plane shooting down Palmer, hence it would seem to be some very interesting footage! A VC in the making!

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

It is possible that Hackl finished off the Lanc that Frass had damaged.

PB120 was a Lanc of 582 Sqn
Missing on mission to Cologne 23-DEC-1944
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=159043

PB137 was a Lanc of 15 Sqn lost
Missing on mission to Heinsberg 16-NOV-1944
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=159031

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

Appologies... The Palmer Lanc was PB371, not the 137....

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

It seems I have missed a response I send earlier. Retry...

The point is, (as far as I can see/dig sofar) there are two Lancasters that could apply: one that crashed 2 km short of the target (specific crash site address even mentioned - the PB120) and Palmers Lancaster that was shot over the target or on the target (no specifics on the crash site). Also the combat report of the 65 squadron mentions the bombs having been released before the attack(s) took place and/or were completed. This fact (not the combat-report of the 65 squadron) was the reason for Palmer to being awarded the VC in the first place.

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

To add to the confusion, Wiki states Palmer's a/c had been hit by flak before the target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...Maurice_Palmer

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

here is what the Bomber Command Operational Research Section (ORS) records for the causes of loss of the aircraft missing from the attack on the Gremberg M/Y on 23 December 1944:

35 Sqn PB678/F and 35 Sqn PB683/H - collided and crashed in sea
582 Sqn PB558/A - Flak and Fighter
582 Sqn PB141/F - H.Flak & Fighter
582 Sqn PB523/J - H. Flak & Fighter
582 Sqn PB120/P - H. Flak & Fighter
582 Sqn PB371/V - H. Flak (Palmer's Lancaster)
109 ML998/E - H. Flak

Of the aircraft damaged, 21 were damaged by Flak (including 105 Sqn ML981/D2 - Heavy Flak (Cat B damage)) and none due to fighters.

The ORS information for missing aircraft was based on the observations of other bomber crews and the testimony of repatriated aircrew PoWs. The information on damaged aircraft was based on ballistics investigation of the damaged aircraft.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

...and here is some corresponding information from German documents, some of which is rather contradictory:

582 Sqn PB141/F - Lancaster, 1156h, Porz/Bahnhof, Jäger & Flak / Lancaster, etwa 1130h, bei Porz Bahnhof, 9 km Suedost Koeln (NP 4-5), Flak, Aufschlagbrand, 98% Bruch, 7 Tote, 1 Gefg (sic, probably should read 7 Gefg., 1 Tot)

582 Sqn PB120/P - Halifax, 1300h Rodenkirchen, 3 km Suedlich Koeln (NO 63), Flak / Lancaster, 1158h, Lancaster, Rodenkirchen, Jäger & Flak

582 Sqn PB371/V - Lancaster, 1200h, Köln-West, Jäger & Flak / Lancaster, 1400h, am Gueterbahnhof Koeln - Nippes (NO 32)

109 ML998/E - Mosquito, 1156h, Rhein bei Porz, Jäger & Flak / 1303h, Juchen, 8 km Suedost Rheydt, Jäger & Flak

Additionally:

582 Sqn PB558/A - (crashed France)

582 Sqn PB523/J - (crashed Belgium)

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

What an extra info.... Ths calls for a return favour....

If I do a quick response:
- course no way certain that the fighter was decisive in Palmer being shot down, I can ofcourse only assume this to be the case. The footage shows however a firing 190 (smoke around the plane - she gets a bit blur in the footage - that is just before the Lanc's port inner engine gets a fire trail) and several hits on the fuselage.
- what seem to be timings in the second response-message is quite difficult to fit.

When I try to get as much as possible info, then one sees (see also attached compilation):
- the German 190 in view in a slow curve to port getting into position behind the Lanc;
- the Mustang curving in to the 190's port quarter and from slightly above;
- one then sees (indeed) typical flak clouds (first frame – the fresh flak cloud just springs up in this frame – pretty dangerous for ones own planes – an older flak cloud dis-appears just right of the lower crosshair mark – the Lanc is also in view now, assumed to be moving slightly to starboard, the 190 still having to move to port to get the Lanc in sight, the Mustang homing in to the 190, also turning to port);
- the next shots are the 190 firing (the fuselage is less(er) visible);
- then a frame in which the Lanc’s inner port engine is emitting flames (a slight smoke-cloud is left behind the plane) following some smoke around the 190, which seems to have been hit by the Mustang on the starboard wing at about the same time. You then see further hits on the Lanc’s fuselage itself (this can not be flak alone) and the Lanc turning sharper to port and downwards;
- the 190 then clearly gets hit, bits are coming off and she turns to starboard in a cloud of smoke, which blocks view of the Lanc as well. The last you see of the Lanc is a continues flame at her port inner engine.

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

I have bolded the entries in post # 9 of the details I've cited directly from German documents. The un-bolded entries originate from work done by Herr Gebhard Aders in Köln archives a few decades ago.

I also have details of the air combat claims by heavy bombers, recognised/awarded by Headquarters Bomber Command:

Day 23 December.

8 Group Lancaster "T" of 582 Squadron, 5053N 0703E, 1255 hrs. 17,500 ft. sighted 15 Me.109s and 4 FW.190s ahead and above. 2 Me.109s attacked, one of which received hits from the R/G. Another Me.109 attacked, followed by a FW.190 which was fired on by the M/U/G and burst into flames. 3 further Me.109s attacked, one of which was damaged, followed by 2 Me.109s which finally broke away. 1 FW.190 claimed destroyed and 2 Me.109s damaged.

8 Group Lancaster "R" of 582 Squadron damaged FW.190.

Among the other documents that would be useful to you is the Bomber Command Interception Tactics Report for 23 December 1944 (I don't have a copy, sorry), which will be in AIR 14/3744 (Interception and Tactics Vol VII) at The National Archives, Kew. The Interception Tactics Report will provide a very good overview of the Luftwaffe air attacks, and RAF repsonse.

Cheers

Rod

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

Thanks. I need some assistance understanding the lingo. Before that, the following:

The problem (in disguise??) is that Palmer's Lanc wasn't the leadplane. The point here is (which clearly follows out of the Combat Reports of the 65 squadron) that at the 'rendez vous' point the fighters only found 2 bomber-groups. The third group wasn't there. At that location, when the real leadplane took a view of the weather, the decision had fallen to step off the planned attack mode and switch over on bombing on sight rather then on automatic. This the two remaining groups did.

The third group, with Palmer in the lead, appeared to not have waited for the other groups AND the escort at the rendez-vous but had moved on independently. This was noticed when they saw a group planes way ahead of them. It then was decide that the 65 squadron would fly ahead to try and pick up the stray group, the other two fighter squadrons remained as protection of the remaining 2 bomber groups.

We now switch over to the 'lead'group with Palmer in the 'lead'plane. With them being where they were, Palmer ofcourse had not picked up the order of the real leadplane to change tactics and attack on sight. Palmer and his group thus pressed on to go on the 'auto' system, which required the planes to drop 'on the lead plane dropping' and also required the bomb-run to be a straight approach. This with a clear sky was ofcourse much more dangerous with flak and German fighters being able to simply 'home-in'.

The 65 squadron was able to catch the stray Palmer group at the time they were about to be attacked by the 26 JG which apparently had by chance run into them.

What does the above (according to me) mean for the footage? With the 65 squadron footage one can thus conclude that the Lanc's you see can ONLY be the Palmer group Lanc's, non of the other Lanc's. The 190 that was shot down was the one attacking the (what also the Germans thought to be) 'lead'group.

If we are able to (maybe??) single out which plane belonged to which of the 3 bomber groups we might then also be able to further pinpoint (by way of determining which plane was where) which Lanc we see hit here.

That is where I have to look at you guys again to 'translate' what precisely you have passed on.

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

L.S.,

Obtained the ORB’s for the 582. Understand from these that there were some 5 planes did not return. One mentioned in the ORB’s and not in the other lists sofar has been the 899. The both planes that crashed are not mentioned in the list, nor is 523. The latter are assumed to be non-582 planes.

Another conclusion is that there is a distinct difference in time-over-target notations: 4 are 12:54-55, remaining 7 planes are generally 12:58-59, with one 12:57.30. From one there is no recorded time-over-target.
According to the 582-ORB thus 13 planes survived, 5 were lost.

If I then home in on the 12:54-55 planes as well as the non-‘time-over-target’ plane, I can more or less safely conclude that nearly all of these planes had NOT heard any order to bomb ‘visual’. These all bombed ‘on leader on OBOE’. The odd one out is the plane which bombed at 12:55. He reports to have heard instructions, but still followed ‘the leader’.

From the TOT 12:58-59 planes, including the 12:57:30 one, nearly all HAD received instructions to go visual. Only 2 out of these 7 planes ‘followed the leader’.

I had hoped to determine a sort-off ‘flight’ order, but these are not in the ORB. I do think however based on this info that:
- The 12:54-55 planes bombed together with Palmer: first on site and following the leader (mostly) not having heard the instructions. These are in total (including Palmer) then 5 planes.
- The other planes were in the groups lagging behind.

From the data of RodM it seems therefore that 523 was not a 582 plane.

Plane ‘T’ (must 130-T mentioned in the ORB) which reported on the fighters and ‘R’ (must be 267) who claimed to have damaged a FW.190 seem to belong to the first group (the ‘early bids’ with Palmer?). Interesting also is that according to the ORB’s nearly all of the 13 surviving planes reported ‘flak-holes’, only 3 did not report damage. There is NO report of any plane with a burning pot inner engine…

Based on that we at least can officially ‘forget’ all the surviving planes, including the above ‘T’ and ‘R’ planes doing the fighter claims, as being the plane in the footage. That plane (with a burning port inner engine) thus more or less for sure has gone down. Plane 558 apparently crashed in France, so also that one is not in the footage. The ones remaining are thus the 120, the 141 and the plane of Palmer (371). With ‘kommandeur’ Hackle (claiming) shooting down what he thought to be the leadplane at around the arrival of Palmers group over target and Werner being shot down at around the same time, the footage could well be the Palmer plane.

Re: 23rd December 1944 - raid on Koln/Cologne - VC for plane shot down
 

Could someone point me in the right direction to see the footage that is being discussed in this thread - I am looking into the action of Squadron Leader Palmer and would like to see for myself the points being discussed

Thanks
Andrew