E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi all,

during searching on e-by, there I found this 2 photo of Hurricane:

1) http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-abgescho...3D382152206549
looks like burned during withdrawal from France May/June 1940

2) http://www.ebay.de/itm/Original-Foto...3D382152206549
cover shields over exhaust - probably later time?

thanks to all for sharing all information with this machines...

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

First one is Roger Bushel's Spitfire lost 23 May 40 & has been for sale for many months

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

The Hurricane appears to have a Rotol prop with the later spinner, and the longer wing/nose fairing of a Mk.II.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hello Mr. Goss,

I´m not expert, but:
1) profile of the wings - its not Spitfire
2) look at the position of right undercarriage leg - again, its not Spitfire
3) left wing gun bay
4)different shape and position of propeller blades like Roger Bushel´s Spit

From my point of view, the 1st photo is Hurry, not a Spit

For the 2nd photo - there is probably photo of same plane from left side - source is old e-bay

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

I must admit to not looking at the first photo, but now agree that it is a Hurricane. The prop is clearly Rotol with its thick roots but the aircraft lacks the oil spill ring behind the spinner. If it is a Mk.I, then it is an unusual spinner.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Stand corrected. Closer look at the Bushell crash shows it flat on its belly

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hello Mr. Boak,

agree with your comment and there are other 2 photos - probably on same plane (look at the blades position) .... probably one from many Hurries, which were left in France .....

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

I have a round twenty or so pictures of wrecked Hurricanes in France, taken [presumably] by Wehrmacht personnel. Unfortunately, in most cases,the fabric has been stripped, making identification impossible.
BTW, it seems every shot bown Battle was photographed at one point or another, from the amount of photographs that regularly appear on German E-Bay.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi kaki3152,

I have in one file about 200 photos of Hurricane wrecks. In this time, I´m in process of sorting them, so, if there is somebody with interesting in this area, pls contact me via PM and we can change and share information.

From my side its just a hobby, I´m not professional historian....

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi guys,

Have in mind that most of the 48 Royal Yugoslav Hurricanes were also burned on the auxiliary airfields by its crews during short 1941 April war. First presented ebay photo looks much alike machine from 4.Fighter Regiment VVKJ burned at Bosanski Aleksandrovac (44° 56' 55" N, 17° 20' 58" E) auxiliary airfield in Bosnia. Position of the Hurricane with starboard u/c leg extracted and terrain in the background is almost perfect match to the photo that I saw few years ago. Inscription on the back of the photo was in German, something like: ....... abgestürzten Flugzeug - B. Aleksandrovac, only the Hurricane was more devastated.
Yugoslav Hurricanes are “rare birds” among photos of burned or destroyed ones at ebay, but they should not be excluded as possibility.

Best
Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Hi Aleks,
you are probably very close - this photo is from old e-bay photo album/photo set , which covered war in South Europe (ex Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete).
Can you please, or somebody else, share info about destroyed Yugoslavia Hurricanes on airfields for comparing with this set of photo.

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Back of Photo says "Calais"

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

...but can be mistake.

Now I receive information, that Yugoslavian Hurricanes use different propeller/blades - can somebody check it?

Thanks Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Only couple of license build Hurricanes allegedly used Yugoslav Rogozarski props but they look almost similar as DH props.
Even first imported batch of twelve Hurricanes received new three bladed props before the war.

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Please just let me know what kind of info? Number of destroyed machines and airfields names?

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

I really don’t want to claim anything against it. But I would like to point to numerous back photo “additions” provided by sellers. Very often there is nothing on the back of the photo. There is a lot of ways to upgrade photo value. Sellers also use their companions as well. From my point of view (take it as subjective one) there is the freshest example. Photo of Yugoslav Hurricane with fuselage inscription “Stab JG 54” (never to be seen with any LW unit on thousands of “beute” machines before) was sold for 221 EUR. I would say that it worth every cent. It only bothers me that I never saw before that bidding on e-bay goes up from 11 EUR up to 220 EUR!!

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Well, lets get back on the track. Any comments about this one?

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Hi Aleks,

do you have info about fate of all Yugoslavian Hurricanes?
Maybe the list with fate can eliminate some candidates (crash during the fight, crash during training flights, captured and sold to Rumania etc) and info, if in some case Yugoslavian mechanics destroyed some machines on airfields.

Thanks

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi Aleks,

its different machine, but type of damaging looks very similar .....

To other: can you please check type of damaging wreck of Hurricanes from France 1940? I know only one case, other looks different....

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Yes I do, but you will have to wait. My book about Hawker in Royal Yugoslav service should be published in near future, most probably at the beggining of next year.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi Faenor,

I agree with you. It could be easily somewhere in France but it's not because the photo is from album of Yugoslav aviator and it represents 4.FR machine at Bosanski Aleksandrovac.
Here is one that I'm not sure about. It's from my friend's collection and it was together with dozen of photos from "Balkanfeldzug". No inscription on the back.

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hello,
Can you explain the markings on the upper wing please ?
It looks like the red/white Polish, so was this a sad attempt to portray the wreck as a Polish a/c ?Top of Yugo cross is visible on the remains of the fuselage.
Alex

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi Alex,

I don’t think that there was an attempt to present a/c as Polish one. Just my point of view. Royal Yugoslav markings were placed only on wings, never on fuselage.
Canvas on tail and rudder is preserved and there’s no RAF markings either. All imported Yugoslav Hurricanes were without tail/rudder national flags, only licensed ones had them. Painted or damaged surface on upper side of starboard wing is too far from wingtip to be overpainted RAF or Yugoslav roundel. According to metal wing cover and armored windshield it’s late Mk.I
Was there any examples of RAF Hurricanes in France without national flags on tail surfaces? I’m not expert on the subject, but I can not remember that I saw one so far...
There is some chances that it could be Yugoslav machine but I’m not sure. If it is, then VVKJ 4.Fighter Regiment machine is in question.

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi Aleks,

from my searching, this Hurricane is definitely from France 1940 - see this topic, on this group of wrecks, there is Miles Master used by Squadrons described in this topic:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=46093

There is more photo - see attachment including Miles Master

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Hi Aleks - fully understand :-)

For you and all, who is interesting in this topic - on e-bay, there is set of 3 photos:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-RAF-Hawk...UAAOSwjyxZb0wX
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-RAF-Hawk...0AAOSwSKlZb0zQ
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-RAF-Hawk...4AAOSwajRZb000

No roundel on wing (maybe I´m blind) , no flag on tail (good point from previous discussion) and on the 3rd photo is some wooden stool with inscription, which I can´t read - maybe somebody younger or with more info

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

IIRC, the fin flash was introduced on May 1st 1940, so it can be expected that aircraft will have had it added by the start of the campaign. Is it possible that the wreck was from an accident before this date?

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Well Faenor, you’re the man!
Excellent, just take a look at the some sort of construction with the roof on the right. That’s the same spot, no doubt. One less to bother with...

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Faenor,

let me try to analyze this one through Yugoslav Hurricanes perspective. It’s not licensed one build by “Zmaj” factory. They were all in three tone camouflage with tail flags (canvas covered wings/non-armored windshields). Next candidate could be the machine from first imported batch (also canvas covered wings and non-armored windshields). So, an early Mk.I (like in 4.FR). There is no roundel on starboard wing for sure. It seems that there is no radio/radio mast as well (same as VVKJ Hurricanes). Inscription on stool says – “2 HANGAR”. If photo represents France, caponnière should be more logical, or not? Yugoslavs regularly used word hangar. According to testimonies, most of the 4.FR Hurricanes were stuck between houses and farms at the edge of the airfield, just like this one. And finally, dimensions of canvas cut out from the rudder fits the position of inscriptions on Yugoslav Hurricanes (only on port side of the rudder), take a look at the photos attached. Well, that was the best of me at the moment...

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

We still have the problem on the non-standard propeller and spinner, unlike any combination seen on other RAF Hurricanes in May 1940. Does it look like the late Yugoslav propeller and its spinner?

Another possibility is that it is an early metal Rotol, which were tried on one unit of Spitfires in this period, but that would mean a different spinner.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

A book about the Royal Yugoslav Air Force. Unfortunately, the text is in Cyrillic.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Yugosl...-/232136659637





Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi there Ed,

Coincidently I’m the author of the mentioned book. I publish it last summer but without promotion on forum since it’s in Serbian. Looks like mistake now... Frank Olynyk stumble upon it on eBay at astonishing price of 100 USD!! It’s Vol I out of four planned.

Best
Aleks

PS I will make presentation at forum after all as soon as I return from vacation...

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hello Graham,

I attached six photos of Yugoslav Hurricane spinners and props. First three represents license build machines at “Zmaj” factory. “Yugo license 1”shows Hurricane 2347 next to the last one produced. So, if there was any Yugoslav “Rogozarski” props used on Hurricanes, this must be the one...
Other three photos (“British changed”) shows British machines from first imported batch, originally equipped with two bladed Watts, later to be replaced. Hope it helps a bit.

Aleks

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

If interested in Aleks' book, wait until he comes back from vacation. It is *considerably* cheaper from Leadensky than the copy on eBay.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Thanks Aleks. I may be over-thinking this. Perhaps it is indeed just the DH spinner designed for the Hurricane, which was longer and more pointed than the more familiar Spitfire one. It just seems too much so...

For the moment I don't have access to my Hurricane books, so I'll just sit back and enjoy the photos.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hi all,

this topic did not stop, we still search and I need your help:

1.direction - photo of same Hurri, or in same position is probably in the book First of the Few: 5 June - July 1940 from Brian Cull. But I have not this book in my library. Can somebody check it?

2.direction - similar photo was seen by my friend in album dedicated to the fighting in Greece 1941- similar flat country and Hurri in same position. During one week, he will find and send to me for compary.

3. direction - Aleks is right and this Hurri is one from Yugoslav Hurricane

Thanks for help

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

One to try and ID. http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Flu...sAAOSwxbpZnGnJ

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

I can't identify it, but suggest that the codes imply a 607 Sq aircraft with unit codes AF, as the unit apparently did not carry individual codes at this time.

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Here's a suggestion...

If you enlarge the photo and look at the serial number area, it's fuzzy but you can make out the top half of the serial. If we consider that Hurricanes lost during the Battle of France (from which judging by paint scheme it almost certainly is from) had the first letter of the serial as either L, N or P. Although it's indistinct the first letter right beside that German fellow's neck could very well be the top of a P. The first number is indistinct and the second appears open on its top right so perhaps a 5 or 6. The third number is most probably a 1 and the fourth could be an 8.

I agree the F in the code suggests 607 Sqn. If we take all this into account and cross reference with losses during the Battle of France, there's the chance that this photo could be of P2618, lost with her pilot F/O Gerald Cuthbert on the morning of the 14th May at Aische-en-Refail.

Just an idea.

Tim

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940 or Yugoslavia 1941
 

Hi all,

this Hurricane is solved - its Belgian Hawker Hurricane Mk.I - code 27 - there is photo with marking and check with the background.

Faenor

Re: E-bay founds - Hurricane, probably France 1940
 

Hello guys,

Yap, it's Belgian... Anyone want's to buy no.2...:(
Here is another one, it's ancient ebay as well.

Aleks