What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

The 601 Squadron lost its Flight Lieutenants and two other Hurricanes from which the pilots succeeded to bail out in a minute according to BoB Then & Now Mk V. Three of the Hurricanes crashed fairly near each other around Tunbridge Wells, the fourth crashed somewhat further to ENE. Caldwell writes in his The JG 26 War Diary Vol 1 that Galland and the First Gruppe, tied to the bombers as close escort, shot down three No. 601 Sqd Hurricanes. From the fact that the squadron lost four fighters in a minute one easily draw a conclusion that the squdron was badly bounched, was that what happened?

TIA
Juha

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Although there's nothing I can find in any of my books regarding this specifically as a "bounce", I'd imagine that this is a distinct possibility. Considering 601 were scrambled from Debden in Essex and flew south to the area of the engagement near Tunbridge Wells in Kent at approx. 0930, this meant that the sun's arc was to the portside of 601 and considering the 109s would have approached from the south and east it's very possible that they were lying in wait up sun for 601 and did indeed bounce them. The fact that two highly experienced air fighters (Rhodes-Moorhouse and Davis) were killed, 2 more bailed out wounded and 3 others force landed would seem to suggest that this was the case.

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hello Smithy
thanks for your trouble and answer!

Juha

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

I have a copy of the official version of events.
If you email me i will send it to you. I am unable to post it on here.
Regards
Gerry
gedburke3ATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Sounds like Gerry knows the ins and outs of what actually happened.

Actually Gerry even though you can't post it on here, is there the possibility that you could actually confirm or deny that 601 were surprised and bounced by the German fighters?

Would be nice if you could let others know as well.

Tim

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Here you go.
Finally worked out how to shrink it small enough to post.
Gerry

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hello Gerry
thanks a lot for the scan!
So at least some 109s bounced the sqn from behind. And interestingly the report gives Davis' rank as F/O while both Leslie Hunt in his Twenty-one Sqns and the BoB T & N Mk V say that he was a F/Lt. But the report named as the second F/Lt Robinson. His position is given as Yellow 1, IIRC usually the leader of A Flight was Red 1 and the leader of B Flight was Blue 1. Maybe the FC was not as rigid as I think. Have you any explanation on this F/Lt question?

Thankfully
Juha

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hi Juga,
According to the records Davis was promoted to Flight Lieutenant on September 3rd 1940. The inscription on his grave is as a Flight Lieutenant.
However, his combat report for September 4th shows him signing as F/O Davis.
There is no mention of his promotion in 601' s ORB so I can only presume that he died before being officially notified of it.
Gerry

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

All,
A little bit of a dig around confirms that Davis received his promotion to Flt Lt on September 3rd but this wasn't announced in the London Gazette until the October 29th 1940.

The announcement of his DFC award was gazetted just a week before his death. This confirms his substantive rank at that time as F/O.
regards
Gerry

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 30 AUGUST, 1940
Flying Officer Carl Raymond DAVIS (90131), Auxiliary Air Force. Flying officer Davis has been engaged on operational flying since 3rd September, 1939. He has taken part in nearly all patrols and interceptions carried out by his squadron. He has been a section leader for the last two months, and on several occasions has led his flight. Flying Officer Davis has personally destroyed six 'enemy aircraft, and severely damaged several others. He has shown great keenness and courage.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 OCTOBER, 1940
AUXILIARY AIR FORCE.
GENERAL DUTIES BRANCH. The undermentioned Flying Officers are promoted to the rank of Flight Lieutenant: — 3rd Sept. 1940.

Charles Bruce THOMPSON (90244).
David Lawrence CLACKSON (90087).
Charles Arthur PRITCHARD (90092).
Edward Stanley SMITH (90093).
Thomas Norman HAYES, D.F.C. (90095).
Carl Raymond DAVIS, D.F.C. (90131).
Anthony Henry Hamilton TOLLEMACHE, E.G.M. (90100).
William Henry RHODES-MOOREHOUSE, D.F.C. (90140).
Hugh Joseph RIDDLE (90141).
John Guy Cardew BARNES (90101).
John Richard Hensman GAYNER (90399).
Edward Fitzroy ST. AUBYN (90055).
[/i]

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Many thanks for the scan Gerry, that was excellent!

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

I do believe that 303 squadron may of been involved in this combat, as looking at Josef frantiseks Combat report for the 6/9/40 the squadron was in the Sevenoaks area at 9.00 am when his attack was delivered, as he goes onto say..

"I was Blue 3 whilst flying at line astern when noticing 2 enemy aircraft one that i attacked from a deflected rear position and fired a burst at a distance of about 150 yards E/A then dived towards the ground flames issuing from the right of the engine" in the meantime Frantisek was attacked by 2 other enemy aircraft and was hit in the tail. Frantisek then returned to Northolt.

From what i can remember P.B. Robinson of 601 squadron was said to of downed an Me109 of F.W. Braun at the time of combat, but i think it was stated in the "303 squadron battle of Britain diary" by Richard King that Josef frantisek was himself responsible of shooting down F.W. Brauns aircraft, that incidently crashed at Tudely farm Tonbridge.

The reason for my interest is that i have a gun muzzle (with a bullet strike) that was from this action and from the Me109 of F.W. Brauns aircraft and has always puzzled me as to who actually shot down this particular aircraft.

Would anyone have any further information on this combat that may clear this up.

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hello Gerry
thanks a lot for the extra info!

Juha

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hi Hawker,
I suspect that the victor would be difficult to prove one way or another.
I do have copies of some operational debriefs relating to 303 squadron in my loft.
I won't have access to them for a few days but will check as soon as I can.
(Been a bit wobbly following a severe migraine that blinded me for 3 days!)
They may reveal a detail that the individual combat reports don't mention.
Regards
Gerry

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Off topic but just wanted to wish you a speedy recovery. I do not suffer them myself but have a relative back home who does, so I have seen how shockingly debilitating they can be. I wish you a speedy recovery Gerry.

Best,

Tim

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

As to German claims, there were substantial in the Ashford area at this time so to say with any certainty who got whom is very very hard

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hi Gerry
First and for most i wish you a speedy recovery and that you will soon get back to normal and thank you for your reply.

As far as the operational debriefs are concerned this may prove to be very interesting as i have tried to get to the bottom of this for some time, but like others have said it could prove a very tough task as no doubt there were many who could of claimed Erich Braun s aircraft whilst in the combat area at this particular time.

(But please in your own time)

I know in its not to important who shot down who as it was a team effort after all, but this has always intrigued me as some say Frantisek whilst others say P.B. Robinson

Brad

Re: What happened to 601 Sqn on 6 Sept 1940 at 9.30 am?
 

Hi Gerry
First and for most i wish you a speedy recovery and that you will soon get back to normal and thank you for your reply.

As far as the operational debriefs are concerned this may prove to be very interesting as i have tried to get to the bottom of this for some time, but like others have said it could prove a very tough task as no doubt there were many who could of claimed Erich Braun s aircraft whilst in the combat area at this particular the time.

(But please in your own time)

Brad