Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Hi,

I m pretty disturb to see that nowadays many Me262 authors are still publishing wrong captions or wrong profiles, stating that a Me 262 from Kdo. Nowotny had a yellow fuselage band and the well known “snake” camouflage pattern on the tail fin, when both are wrong!

It seems that all this especially began from a well known film showing “white 1” advancing out of a row of Me 262 with “white 19” becoming first on the line. Then “green 3” W.Nr.110813 is saw coming in front of the camera.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...oc/IIIEJG2.jpg

First doubts appeared when I saw gun camera shots showing F.Schall “white 7” W.Nr.110404, obviously without any yellow fuselage band. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../WNr110404.jpg

Then came Mr Manfred Boehme in 1992 with “JG 7”, Schiffer Ed. who told us that W.Nr.110813 was produced in December 44, after Kdo. Nowotny was disbanded on 19th November 44… So we can concluded that the above film shows airplanes from III./EJG2 and not from Kdo. Nowotny as usually stated.

Finally came Mr Axel Urbanke in 1998 with his marvellous “Green Hearts First In Combat With The Dora 9” who was the first definitely showing an airplane from Kdo. Nowotwy which was “white 2” W.Nr. 110389. Her previous yellow fuselage band, from EKdo 262, is clearly over-painted, the camouflage is a very dark one, and there is a white painted quarter on the rudders lower-rear part.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../WNr110389.jpg

So since 1998, it became easy to suppose that photos from F. Schall “white 1”, Schreiders “white3” W.Nr.110372 and Helmut Baudach “white or yellow 6 or 8” were all 3 showing airplanes under Kdo. Nowotny markings.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...c/F_Schall.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../WNr110372.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../H_Baudach.jpg

Smith & Creek in Me 262 volume2 from Classic Pub. and Dan O’Connell in is recent book “Messerschmitt Me 262 – The Production Log 1941-1945” ended the story explaining that the “snake” tail fins were actually wooden experimental fins, for what I understand produced in December 44, sometimes retrofitted over earlier Me 262 this explaining why some airplanes produced before Kdo. Nowotny was disbanded could be seen with this "snake" tailplane in December44 or later, as the very known W.Nr.170003 V7 pictured in color.

Finally to conclude have a look on this one W.Nr.110371, which except from the missing white or yellow front nose fuselage digits show all the characteristics from a Kdo. Nowotny Me 262: a pretty dark camo without any yellow fuselage band nor any “snake” pattern camo on the tail fin but with a white quarter on the rear and bottom part from the rudder. Note that this white painted quarter is more specific from late 1944 Me 262 production than from Kdo. Nowotny.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Nr110371_b.jpg

And to this last one 110522 with the yellow fuselage band added after it’s transfer to III./EJG2, pictured in colour inside “Messerschmitt Me 262 – Development-Testing-Production” book from W.Radinger & W.Schick, 1993. The info that it was an airplane transferred from Kdo. Nowotny come from Dan O’Connell book.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../WNr110522.jpg


Cheers,

Olivier Menu.

Note: I know authors dislike when photos are published on the web, that’s why, except one, I made them very small (200 pixels wide and 5ko size). Note also that all of them had been already published at least for two times before. Anyway if asked I will delete them.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Oliver, thank you. I am blue in the face trying to stop this myth. All of those tails were experimental wooden tails, which worked very well, and applied to random aircraft. A VERY few aircraft with them did in fact serve with Nowotny, strictly coincidence.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

So production from those wooden tails would began earlier than December44? Dan, are you able to tell exactly when?

And which were the 100% sure few exceptions to the above rules about Kdo Nowotny aircrafts?

I have not yet checked every early W.Nr. from your book but the two times i have look about one with this special tail it was said that she got it after some repairs...

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Oliver,

Thanks for this interesting summary. One note regarding the "white painted" lower part of the tail rudder. This was acutally not paint but clear glass and the tail nav light was behind this clear glass part. If I remember correctly the had problems with moisture and from a certain production block onwards installed the external nav light seen on later production Me 262. I might even have some information after which WkNr the new nav light was installed, which may help to identify early and late war Me 262 (if the tail rudder had not been replaced, of course).

So, the fact that Kdo Nowotny had mainly Me 262 with this "white" part only means that they were early production Me 262.

Kind regards,
Roger Gaemperle

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Oliver,

The first document I have that mentions the wodden tails is dated 18 September 1944 and mentions that serial production has already started at the company JSF in Darmstadt (JSF is a 3 letter code for a company).

Construction drawings had beed presented to Stabü and Forschan Oberammergau as early as beginning of July 1944.

Hope that helped.

Kind regards,
Roger Gaemperle

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

I am only able to find four Me 262 with known W.Nr. and the "snake" pattern tain fin. From the must have Dan O'Connell book it seems that they all four got some repairs which can explain their new fin camouflage:

- 170047 "white 1+s": experimented 2 or 3 crashes before being pictured on the III./EJG2 film probably in January 1945.

- 170061 "white 4": had been pictured with a non "snake" pattern when she was "white 11" under EKdo 262.

- 170303 "V 303": pictured, probably early 45, at a time he had the tail fin from another plane, 170078. But when did 170078 got it's "snake" fin, i dont know?

- 110376 "white 7": pictured with the "snake" tail after the end of the war. She got one month repair between 10th of December and 9th of January 45 waiting for engines.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

If "jsf" is the Lw code for the company working on Me 262 tails, it describes "Pollmann, Franz, Moebelfabrik, Steinheim i/Westf." And, what better than a furniture company to make wooden parts for an aircraft.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

So have we established that there was no camouflage scheme common to all Kdo. Nowotny aircraft?

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Hi Nick, it's pretty sure that there was different camouflages since the airplanes came from different factories.
What is pretty sure also is that none of them got any yellow fuselage band and that the famous wooden tail fin with "snake" camouflage was not the rule but the exception if not absent.

I just found a good picture from one of this wooden tail fin and rudder, and strangely there is not any navigation light visible. Could this be the explanation to why it was mostly, if not only, delivered to training or experimental units but not to combat units, last few weeks of war excepted?

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Me 262 Rudder Evolution:

Except prototypes, three kinds of rudders are found.

- The earlier type got the navigation light enclosed inside a transparent cap. Probably because of its light catching properties it usually appear more white than clear on photos.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Doc/early2.jpg…http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Doc/early1.jpg

- The late type got the navigation light fixed on the bottom rudder tips, which was the usual emplacement on German fighters.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...4_Doc/late.jpg

- The intermediate and experimental wooden fin which seems to have the navigation light fixed under the rudder as visible here from shots from “white7” 110376, left side only, “white 1+S” possibly 170047, left & right and “9K+FH” 111685, left & right. I guess this last one got a change from its rudder only, not the fin, and that its “snake” pattern was then over-painted which could be the explanation for its unusual black rudder. Actually I m not able to see any ampoule, only its supposed emplacement which I first thought to be some damage.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ermediate1.jpg…http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ermediate2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rmediate2r.jpg…http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ermediate3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rmediate3r.jpg

NOTE: I would be pleased for any help about navigation light on the wooden tail-plane.

Sources:
Photo1 > French mag, “Ciel de Guerre” No.04, 2005.
Photo2 > widely published (Me 262 towing a gliding bomb)
Photo3 > Burindo “Famous Airplanes of the World” No.115.
Photo4 > Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album Vol.3, Delta Pub., 1993.
Photo5 > French mag, “Aéro Journal” N°1, 1998.
Photo6 > French mag, “Aéro Journal” N°1, 1998.
Photo7 > French mag, “Le Fanatique de l’Aviation” Hors Serie N°28H, 2005.
Photo8 > Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album Vol.1, Delta Pub., 1992.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

The first "stenciled tail" photo, of White 7, with the exposed interior, was taken at a dump in Neubiberg. The other two, of White 1, were taken at Innsbruck. I am greatly enjoying this conversation; I have tried for years and years to stop this "Kdo Nowotny" myth.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Ok, it definitely seems that this intermediate wooden experimental fin can be identified from its non flat under part. And it was not specific to the “snake” fins as you will see bellow with rudder from “17+S” 110956 left & right, “B3+CL” 110567 right side only (note missing cap) and finally one more from “9K+FH” showing that it was finally not so dark on her right side at least, probably some kind of red or yellow over-sprayed with a dark-green serpentine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ermediate4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rmediate4r.jpg… http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rmediate5r.jpg… http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...mediate3r2.jpg

Sources:
Photo1 > Burindo “Famous Airplanes of the World” No.115.
Photo2 > Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album Vol.3, Delta Pub., 1993.
Photo3 > “Wings of the Black Cross”, Nb 3, M.Proulx, 2005.
Photo4 > “JV44, The Galland Circus”, R.Forsyth, 1996.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Hi;

Interesting theory about the alternative "underslung" tail nav light, but I think it would not be practical to locate the nav light UNDER the rudder. Also, as I look at the photos shown (and also scanning what I have) I note that the "opening" does not appear to be consistent, and has a rather "jagged" appearance.

May I suggest an alternative explanation? Overzealous pilots.

What I have noted in looking at these pictures, and many others, is that the shape of the bottom of the rudder in some aircraft is nicely rounded, while on others it is very flat. My hobby is "building" virtual aircraft for a flight sim, which tends to make one very aware of movement and function. For instance, note the Flettner tab on the rudder which virtually all 262s had (though it is rarely noted.)
I also include this screenshot:

http://www.trains-n-planes.com/262tail.jpg

Though I know it is a model (nobody would let me rotate a real 262 on its tail to illustrate my point, hence this shot) it illustrates clearly that when the 262 over-rotated, the first area of contact with the ground was the rudder. I would submit that the big problem with the early tail light arrangement was that the plexi "globe" was shattered too often by pilots over-rotating, either on take-off or landing, and could explain why the nav light was relocated. I also submit that while metal may dent, the wooden rudders would be more prone to shattering, hence the rather jagged nature of the bottom of the wooden rudders illustrated.

Certainly, on the photo of “white7” 110376, it would appear that the entire bottom of the rudder is gone! This may be why the wooden tails were not used more, because the wood would shatter where the metal tails would usually just dent, making them more resilient. Again, the fact that a lot of aircraft with metal tails seem to have a flattened "bottom" to the rudder (albeit at an angle, similar to that illustrated by my example above) indicates to me that this is a very real possibility, and indeed may have been a quite common occurance.

Paul

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Very interesting alternative explanation Paul, actually more dual than alternative.

But i still think that we are in front of a third kind of rudder simply because i was not able to find any flattened rudder with the transparent cap or with the late external navigation light. Indeed i agree that especially the two "snake" ones look damaged but they are the two only "snake" one i was able to find with enough good quality.

If your explanation is the correct one, and it could be, then you can notice than they indeed dont have the transparent cap nor any late external navigation light at the end cap which would mean that they dont have any navigation light on the rudder (even if i agree that the last two could be discuted since "white 17+S" shots are of poor quality and the end cap from "B3+CL" is missing) and that i was not lucky enough to find one of those with no light but non flattened which is possible...

Then remain the question was there any navigation light on the wooden experimental rudder?
Could someone find a non flattened rudder with the "snake" pattern?

( "White4" looks to be non flattened but with the late external nav light which would mean that the stenciled "snake" pattern could have been painted over non wooden rudder > but the photo i not of good quality enough to be sure)

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

The more i think about and the more i think you are right Paul... I was more collecting informations than on a criticise time those last days ;)

The two "snake" are obviously dammaged and more broken than flattened probably cause of their wooden construction.
The others, steal ones, are flattened and dammaged like "B3+CL", or probably repaired like "9K+FH", or bad quality shots like white "17+S" which could have the late version navigation light at the end cap.

So only remain one question did the wooden "snake" rudder got any navigation light? ;)
From the above photos they clearly dont have any transparent end cap nor any late external navigation light... Perhaps because they were experimental and thus not suited for combat units at least at the begining? One more reason to think that none of them were delivered to Kdo.Nowotny... (Hehe time to return to original topic)

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Hi Olivier,

thanks a lot for your note about this problem. Your are right and it was time to stop this myth. Very bad that we see again and again the same photos with the wrong captions! Did the Me 262 authors didn't see these things or realize our discussion!

All the best
Panzerscheibe

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

I think you will find that most authors are working to a deadline, and so just don't have the time to research all aspects of the topic they are writing about. So, they may use information from sources they consider reliable, to fill in the parts they cannot or will not research themselves. And, that can get you recurring errors such as the ones mentioned above.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

George, apologies, but if someone writes to present information strictly on a deadline, they have no business having it in print. It shouldn't be printed until the author says it's ready, and they are completely able to back up their information. Many see a book as "the word" and it takes forever to change those erroneous interpretations. This case of "Nowotny markings" has been around at least 30 years, and it will probably take another 30 to re-educate everyone.

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Nice presentation, thanks to all who participated!

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Olivier,

I just came across a document of Obb. Forschungsanstalt Oberammergau (the Messerschmitt project office) dated 18.9.44 that describes the wooden rudder manufactured by JSF. It states that "... it has to be examined whether moisture can get into the navigation light compartment or not".

Hence, the wooden rudders, or at least the ones manufactured by JSF, must have had a navigation light. Would be interesting to find some period drawings of the wooden rudder.

Interesting side-note: The wodden rudder was only slightly lighter than the serial rudder (14.5 kg vs. 18.6kg).

Kind regards,
Roger GAemperle

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Thanks again for the help Roger!

I also expect that more will raise on this subject in the future...

Re: Kdo. Nowotny markings : STOP THE MYTH !
 

Has any new information since come to light on the possible scheme/markings of Nowotny's Me 262 white 8?