USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

The RAF claimed 2 but how many, when and who claimed on the American side?

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Chris,
There's a good book on this topic : German Jets vs the USAAF, by William N. Ness.

Chris

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Chris: Recent publication? First kills I have were 16 Aug 44

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

From an old file (written before I started to systematically note sources, so no source, sorry), I have six USAAF claims against Me 163s, the earlier being on 29 July 1944:

440729: Cpt Arthur Ferdinand Jeffrey, 434th FS, 479th FG: 1 Me 163 in Wilhelmshaven area, Germany

440816: 2nd Lt Cyril W Jones, Jr, 370th FS, 359th FG: 1 Me 163 SE Leipzig, Germany
440816: LtCol John Byrd Murphy, 370th FS, 359th FG: 1 Me 163 SE Leipzig, Germany

441102: Cpt Louis H Norley, 335th FS, 4th FG: 1 Me 163 SE Leipzig, Germany
441102: Cpt Fred W Glover, 336th FS, 4th FG: 1 Me 163 E Leipzig, Germany

450315: Cpt Ray S Wetmore, 370th FS, 359th FG: 1 Me 163 in Wittenberg area, Germany

No idea if it was a complete or even accurate to current standard list.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Adding to Laurent's excellent list I have

44-08-16 1/Lt J.C. Skiffit at 10.50H 370FS near Bohlen (south of Leipzig), 1 Me-163 damaged

44-10-07 1/Lt W.G. Erfkamp at 12.40H 385FS south-east of Leipzig, 0.5 Me 163
44-10-07 Capt E.A. Taylor at 12.40H 385 FS south-east of Leipzig, 0.5 Me 163
(Shared claim)

Cheers
Stig

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

And here's one that nobody seems to have found - Bob Garlich 355th FG 357th FS on 23 February 1945 - 1 x Me163 destroyed (air) official confirmation.

Peter

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Both 355th FG's claim on 23 February 1945 were not in the official list on the http://www.airuniversity.af.mil/ website when I retrieved it years ago.

And by the way 1st Lt Roscoe claimed 5 Bf 109s shot down and 2 probable on 2 March and was awarded ... nothing ??? There is maybe a story behing that.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

The book "An ordinary day in 1945" by Peter Kassak describes the air battles of 2 March 1945 between RAF, USAAF and Luftwaffe, and has an extract of the report by 1st Lt Roscoe Allen.

After oxygen failure, he turned back home (apparently alone) and met at 1020 hrs in the Dummer Lake area 15 Bf 109s carrying bombs and engaged them. From the extract it seems to be very optimistic about his firing skills. He claimed destroyed all five aircraft he claimed he hit (he reported seeing two pilots baling out) and probably destroyed two that he fired at, but reporting no hit in the report !!!

It seems that the USAAF was not as optimistic.But the book above makes no comment (and did not propose any ID of the German unit).

Allen was not a big ace (I can't find any confirmed victory for him). Similar stories by successful aces seem to have been accepted by the authorities more easily.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

A little more information from "Our Might Always" by Bill Marshall:

March 2, 1945
FO 1683A Lieutenant Colonel Graham led a Ramrod to Magdeburg to shepherd the trailing boxes of 2nd TF/2BD B-24s. The 355th Mustangs made R/V over the Zuider Zee at 0930 and took the B-24s to the target at 1040.
Bombing results appeared to be good to excellent. The Group then swept ahead of the bombers along the Hannover - Bremen - Dummer Lake line, and seeing nothing of interest, rejoined the bombers before turning for home.
On the way to the target, Lieutenant Allen of the 358FS aborted because of oxygen problems, just east of Dummer Lake around 1010. Around 1020, he spotted 15+ Me109s, all carrying centerline-mounted bombs, heading southwest. He attacked the trailing section of eight. He described them as having a dragon-like insignia on the fuselage.
When Allen attacked, they did not drop their bombs nor attempt to break ranks. Allen claimed five destroyed and two probably destroyed before running out of ammo. Upon return, his film was discovered damaged and he never received credit for the claims.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Peter

Since you are quoting Marshall's Our Might Always, may I just say that he states all 355FG's claims on 1945-02-23 were ground victories (see Appendix B page 397)
Checking Frank Olynyk's work, neither he has any air-air claims of any Me 163 on the 23rd.
I am not sure Chris question was related to ground victories as well.
If so Marshall has 355FG and five pilots making six ground claims of Me 163 that day.

Cheers
Stig

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Peter,

Here is Garlich's report on the Feb 23 mission. It is part of a Squadron Strafing Report, of Neuburg A/D.

I was flying Green 4 and came in over Neuburg A/D to the left of my flight leader, Lt. Ludeke, between him and purple flight and behind Capt McNeff and Lt. Schmidt. There were 6-8 E/A parked wing tip to wing tip in the SE corner of the field, and I concentrated on the 3rd one from the west. I opend fire at 700 yards and immediately began to register hits. As I closed to point blank range, there was an explosion and the plane, a T/E aircraft, caught fire. As I pulled off the field I observed one large fire in the area in which I felt encompassed several aircraft, including the one I had destroyed. I claim 1 T/E U/A destroyed.

My notes say this was in box 3373, Record Group 18, Entry 7A at NARA II, digitized on April 25, 2011. I had microfilmed this material back in the early '80s, when it was held at the Washington Record Center at Suitland, Maryland.

On the first page of the report, which lists all the claims made at Neuburg A/D, which is titled "Squadron Strafing Report, 357", Garlich's line has a ? in pencil on the left side (all the other entries have "OK" in pencil), and in pencil on the right, "film so dull, can't see A/C".

Now I need to find my copy of the full VCB report, somewhere on my hard drive.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

OK, found the VCB report. I digitized it on Feb 15, 2007. It would appear to be box 189 or 190 of RG 18, Entry 7A.

The title is "Joint Victory Credits Board, 65th, 66th and 67th Fighter Wings, Confirmation of Victory Credits Board". This is Report 7, and Garlich's entry is line item 32, on the second page of the report. It is noted as 355th FG, 357th FS, on 23 Feb 1945. The claim is noted as one destroyed, the award is noted as one destroyed, the Type E/A is noted as "Me163 grd" and the Place is "Neuburg A/D". Remarks noted as "Confirmed." This is the original report, dated 20 March 1945, not "A True Copy".

So we have the interesting situation that the combat report claims an U/I T/E aircraft on the ground, which becomes a Me 163 on the ground in the VCB report, and then a Me 163 in the air in the extract posted by Peter. But I have to go with the original report in College Park, NARA II.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Thanks Frank. Just goes to show what an absolute jungle this can be! Unfortunately Bob Garlich is no longer with us so he can't shed any light on the subject. However, the VCB document that I posted was given to me by Bob at one of the reunions, and if I remember correctly, and I'm sure that I do, he said that the 163 was landing, but still "in the air" when he hit it. Guess that we will never really know the true circumstances.

Peter

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Thanks Peter/Frank

Reading again the combat report quoted by Frank, I cannot see how this Me 163 suddenly can be landing. There is nothing in the combat report which suggest anything like that.

I have always interpreted T/E to stand for a twin-engined aircraft. Since the Me 163 was far from a twin-engined aircraft I can then only assume that Me 163 was the final interpretation of the gun-camera film?

Finally, if Neuburg in this case is the same as Neuburg an der Donau, I have not heard of any Me 163 ever being based down there. This attack must also have been among the first made against this airfield.

Cheers
Stig

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

I've asked Bill Marshall if he has any take on this one.
Peter

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

Hello all,

Just a correction on the oft-misquoted rank of Rolf Glogner. From Ransom & Cammann, Me 163 Rocket Interceptor Volume Two, (2003) p.274:

"Uffz. Rolf Glogner: (23) 'I shot down a Mosquito on 16 March 1945. In this case, Goring should have awarded me a medal and given me a promotion and special leave. Instead, I received confirmation of my victories in Russia. Because, up to that time, I had only received the gold Frontflug-Spange fur Jaeger, I was retrospectively awarded an EK II. Shortly afterwards I was promoted to Feldwebel.'"

best regards,

Jim Geens

P.S. I'm sorry. This post was meant for Chris' thread on the Mosquito Loss 10 April 1945.

Re: USAAF Claims for Me 163s
 

I'll try to answer all the 355th questions.

First, neither Garlich nor Allen received an aerial victory credit during WWII by either *th AF VCB or USAF Study 85.

The Me 163 claim by Garlich was a credited Me 263 at Neuberg A/d. The 355th awards for ground destruction on 2/23/45 was 14 Destroyed, 12 Damaged. None of the damaged Me 262s burned and only Garlich's 163 was observed burning.

Allen's 3-2-45 claims for 109s were disallowed because a.) no witness and b.) film was bad. Simply no confirmation possible.